Thomas Hardy
Imagine yourself being a lively, vibrant young person stuck with a bunch of hicks in an insular location where nothing ever happens. (Sound familiar to some of you?) What can you do to amuse yourself? What would you do to get out?
The Return of the Native is a traditional 19th century novel by one of the great English novelists, Thomas Hardy. You’ll find that it’s kind of slow-paced for our tastes. But stick with it. The characters are interesting, and the situations they find themselves in are compelling. Hardy liked to subject his characters to the vagaries of fate, and that is certainly in evidence in The Return of the Native.
Warning: this book starts off slow. Real slow. It's a loving description of Egdon Heath, the setting for this novel. (The chapter gives you some idea of what it feels like for Eustacia to have to live there.)
Try to get through it. The heath is an important character in the novel. But, rest assured, the whole book is not like this. Once we start getting into characters, and especially plot, you'll like it. However, if -- and only if -- you would find yourself giving up on Hardy, (or starting to consider alternative paths), you have my permission to skip ahead. Try a paragraph or two, or to the end of the chapter if need be. But then start in again. Stick with it. You'll be glad you did.
Looking into my crystal ball, I foresee that this will be the least popular of the summer reading books. Well, tough. I believe that a lot of AP teachers create their summer reading lists for their colleagues rather than their students ("See what my students are reading!"). I don't do that. This is the most traditional of the summer reading books. It's a good novel, historically important, and something you should be capable of at least bulling your way through, if not enjoying.
For what it's worth, I read it first when I was a senior in high school, and I loved it. (Holden Caulfield even likes Eustacia, and he hates everything!)
I am on my second day of reading Return of the Native and I must say I am shocked I have already reached Book Four: The Closed Door. In the beginning, I was really pushing myself to read; it just seemed like nothing was ever going to happen. Even with all the description of Egdon Heath, I still had trouble picturing the place until the true plot really unfolded. I kept reminding myself of the first time I read Jane Eyre in middle school. At the start, I regretted ever picking up a classic...the authors write completely differently from the fast paced books we're used to now...but once I really got into the book, I fell in love with every part of it. This is starting to happen with Return of the Native, although I'm not sure I love it quite yet. I found myself getting anxious whenever Eustacia and Damon would meet up. Of course, I also felt bad for the brokenhearted Venn. And poor Mrs. Yeobright! She thinks she has everything under control, but really, she has no clue what's going on at all...and it's right under her nose! It's amazing how much scandal can go on in a town that seems so simple at the surface. It really does have many qualities similar to Tolland...everyone knows everything about everybody! Just as I do with my favorite tv shows, I'm hoping that certain characters end up with each other in the end...yes, I'm still holding out hope that Thomasin and Venn will get together! I almost don't want to put this book down, because every time it seems to lag, I know an exciting part will be coming shortly to follow. I'm excited to see what else these poor characters will have to go through...
ReplyDelete-Sarah Anischik
After finishing this book, I was amazed at how a seemingly small occurrence can change the lives of so many people. Clym Yeobright came into town on an innocent trip to visit his mother for Christmas, and his decision to stay in town changed the lives of Mrs. Yeobright, Eustacia Vye, Damon Wildeve, Thomasin Tamsin, and Diggory Venn. What I really noticed throughout the relationships between all these people is how the author doesn't place much emphasis on how the relationships are formed. One minute, the couple is just meeting for the first time, and the next, they are ready to be married. There is not as much emphasis on passion as there is emphasis on the pain that comes after the passion. I found it interesting how the book ended much like it started. There was a wedding, and all the townspeople were gossiping about it. You leave the novel as quietly as you enter it. They way it begins barely foreshadows how intense the book really ends up being. At the mention of that though, once the book really gets started, there is foreshadowing everywhere and the characters show intuition into everyone's business. It's disheartening how many deaths take place throughout the novel, but I see the irony in Wildeve and Eustacia dying together in the same place. Perhaps it was fate intervening...fate wanted them together, but Eustacia wasn't so sure, so death was the only way to ensure they would go out together. All in all it wasn't too bad, for all the places it is dark, the carefree way it ends can let you leave Egdon Heath contently and feeling that most people more or less got what they deserved (save maybe for eternally single Christian).
ReplyDelete-Sarah Anischik
I have just finished the first book in The Return of the Native and can already see how Thomas Hardy incorporates tragedy into the book. The back cover states that the "stew of curdled love and conflicting emotions can only boil over into tragedy." And Mr. MacArthur wrote on the summer reading list that "Hardy liked to subject his characters to the vagaries of fate." Hardy referenced a lot of Greek mythology in the first book, showing that he was well-informed about the subject and incorporated the theme of tragedy and fate into his own book. I also feel that there are a lot of coincidences that can be attributed to fate. For example, Diggory Venn just happened to be a mile outside of Anglebury when Thomasin fled from Damon Wildeve and their failed attempt at getting married. He was able to give her a ride to Egdon Heath, where fate led him to listen in on Eustacia Vye and Wildeve's conversation at night. All of these events seem to happen out of fate, and I can only imagine that this theme will carry through the rest of the book. I can't wait to see how the story ends after fate has taken hold of all of the characters' lives.
ReplyDeleteI finished The Return of the Native at the beach yesterday and what could be farther from the heath?
ReplyDeleteI'll admit, the first chapter was a little tough, but I really liked how he seemed to be describing the place as a person; it’s that complex, has that many characteristics. It’s changing, season after relentless season, yet it’s always the same as ever.
All the allusions and explanatory notes gave me a run for my money in the beginning, too, but by the end I was more than happy to flip back and read about some ancient figure or fable. I marveled at how Hardy knew all that, and was able to connect so much of it. I now think any writer looking to impress should read and allude to the Bible, or some ancient Greek.
Going back to characterization, I enjoyed Hardy's so much that I marked the chapter devoted to Eustacia Vye and the pages introducing Clym Yeobright in my copy. The wording is so beautiful, and he makes each of them (Eustacia especially) a story in themselves, a story within the story, so I didn't at all mind being taken out of the action one bit.
I agree with you, Sarah, that you almost start hoping for things to turn out a certain way. By the end of the first book you could write an ending that’s happily-ever-after for everyone (except maybe Venn), but just looking at the rest of it, you know that not how its going to work, and I’m glad. (Spoiler alert!! =>) The deaths in the fifth book took me totally by surprise, and while its is unfortunate, I’m glad Hardy wrote it that way, because it would’ve been much less interesting, even dull, if he hadn’t, and it really wouldn’t have worked if he’d had Clym take up preaching without loosing Eustacia, in that irrevocable way. I knew we would see Mrs. Yeobright’s death from the beginning, also unfortunate, but absolutely necessary to the story.
Also, the titles of the books themselves are an important part of the story. Each one of them can be applied to their respective stories in so many ways. I was wondering about Book First The Three Women. Are the three women really Eustacia, Thomasin and Mrs. Yeobright? Probably. But I was thinking, what if not Thomasin or Mrs. Yeobright, but the heath? Am I just crazy symbolic? Book Second The Fascination could be both Eustacia’s fascination with Clym, and Clym’s new fascination with educating the people of the heath. He IS the returning Native, after all. Even the title can be thought of in so many ways; the introduction, of my copy at least, lent some interesting insights.
After reading the first 3 pages of this book it would take me weeks to get through this book, being a slow reader and all, but as Mr. MacArthur said, it does get a lot more interesting as you meet the characters. I thought the story to be dragged out with a little too much detail though. The heath reminds me a little bit like Tolland where there isn't much to do and people dream of going to bigger and better places such as Paris where Clym went. I found it strange that Diggory Venn just happened to appear in the book at such coincidental times. For example, the time he randomly appeared after Wildeve had won money off of Christian. I wonder why Wildeve chose to marry Thomasin instead of Eustacia? It seemed that he was always more interested in and loved Eustacia and marrying Thomasin only brought him stress. I wonder how the lives of the characters would have turned out if the two had married. Would Clym have moved back to Paris since he would have never loved Eustacia? Mrs. Yeobright's fate would certainly have not turned out the way it did since the marriages of her niece and son would not be with the people they did marry. This is just a thought that popped into my mind after finishing reading and thinking that this could be a whole different story if one action had been changed in the beginning.
ReplyDeleteI realized that I hardly mentioned my favorite character Diggory Venn (sorry, Eustacia, but you're a very close second). I want to know what some one would look like red! Hardy says at one point that it’s difficult for others to read his expression sometimes because of his coloring. I wouldn't have thought of that as an effect. But that must be such an isolating occupation, traveling and looking so different. People might not even want to come near you because they could be afraid of getting some red on them, not to mention that parents use his kind as a boogeyman. So I wonder if the reason people can't read him so well is because he's lost some of his normal social skills.
ReplyDeleteI love that he always shows up in the most unexpected (but also the most useful!) places. He's a trickster, a spy; he has a behind-the-scenes hand in everything. The scene where he's gambling with Wildeve for the inheritance- how did he do it? I'm willing to believe that Christian Cantle is just THAT unlucky, but I'm skeptical that Venn's that lucky. And the part just before that where he was sitting in the fireplace, just his red pipe sticking out? I immediately thought of the devil. Chapters VII and VIII.
I also reread the first chapter, and it was definitely easier; I think I got a lot more out of it and I think this will be one of those books I can reread because I’ll pick up on something different each time. The first few following chapters were also notable for me. I liked how Hardy took us from the old Captain walking down the Roman Road, to the reddleman he passes, to the people on Blackbarrow (in some editions it’s Rainbarrow) that Venn can see in the distance. All of these people and places have roles throughout the story. The scene of the peasants around the bonfire reminded me of what I’ve read about The Canterbury Tales, by Geoffrey Chaucer; a variety of common (Old English) people telling tales and stories (I think they were gathered around a fire at some point in Canterbury Tales, but I could easily be wrong.).
Joanne, I think Wildeve might have chosen to marry to Thomasin because he knew she would make a good wife, which he wanted, but he also probably thought he’d be able to keep Eustacia as a mistress, because at that point he didn’t know about Clym, or at least that she fancied Clym. He says to Eustacia at one point that he’s found “two flowers where he once believed there was only one…” and for all he knows there could be “three or four or more in the same place.” (Or something along those lines). I also don’t think Clym would have moved back to Paris, because part of the reason he originally came back to the Heath was because he wanted to educate the people there and start a school, he says this in Chapter I of Book Third the Fascination. And you’re right; everything could have gone differently, at so many points in the story if one person had made one different decision. It’s weird to think about what could have been.
Okay, I was just reading Kelsey's last comment, and I was reminded of how I was so confused about how a person could just be completely red. For some reason, every time his red skin was described, an image of that red Teletubbies character popped into my head. Don't ask me why; I know that's really weird. Maybe I'm just spending way too much time babysitting. Diggory seemed to be a little bit of everything that red can symbolize. He was able to fall in love at the end, his anger showed at some points, and the way he was always popping up in everyone's business could seem almost a little devilish at times, even if he did have good intentions. I still can't get over how much fate rules over everything in this book. And Joanne is right, too. There are about 100 different ways this book could have been written, but all in all, if I really think about it, the way Hardy twisted the plot was the most satisfying.
ReplyDelete-Sarah Anischik
I have just finished Book First. Unlike what Mr. MacArthur and others have said, I did not find this book hard to get into at all. I very much enjoyed reading about the scenery. I found it quite serene and beautiful. I read this while on a thirteen hour car ride back from Michigan, and what Hardy described I could look out the window and almost see the events unfolding which helped make it much more real. I also relish reading all of Hardy's allusions especially to Greek mythology and the Bible. I have always loved Greek mythology even from a young age, and reading his allusions have brought back many memories. I also just recently finished The Prince by Niccoló Machiavelli. Oddly enough, Hardy and Machiavelli use many of the same references to the Bible. However, they use them in drastically different ways. My one problem with this book is that it all seems to coincidental. This makes the book less believable for me. Despite this, the storyline interests me, and I look forward to reading more.
ReplyDelete-Erik Anderson
I have just started reading this book, and I already know it will be tough for me to get through. I usually enjoy exciting plots that get moving through the first few chapters. However, from the previous comments I am hoping it will shape up for me, too. However boring I think it now though, there is one line that has already spoken to me.
ReplyDelete"Then it became the home of strange phantoms; and it was found to be the hitherto unrecognized original of those wild regions of obscurity which are vaguely felt to be compassing us about in midnight dreams of flight and disaster, and are never thought of after the dream till revived by scenes like this."
This happens to me all the time! I guess I like this quote because not only can I relate to it, but it is also something from the book that I've actually understood so far. Hopefully there is more of this to come!
-Kristen Tetreault
I’ve just finished reading Book 1 and I have a couple of thoughts. One, you don’t ask a girl who loves you whether you should marry someone else. Two, you don’t tell a women who you are going to ask to go away with you that one of the reasons you are asking her is because your old marriage license was bad and your ex-fiancee’s aunt spoke to you meanly. Right now (and I may change my mind on all of this) I do not like Wildeve, and I think that if anyone marries him my opinion of them will drop. I like Eustacia. Even before I started this book, just reading the back cover, I thought I would like Eustacia. I hope I do continue to like her because it’s always nice to really like at least one character in a book and that didn’t happen for me in either of the other two summer reading books so Eustacia is my last chance. Or maybe another character, you never know. So Eustacia better not marry Wildeve (and do not tell me if she does). I’m actually getting kind of emotionally invested in this book. I haven’t read all the comments in depth for fear of spoilers (so I don’t know if anyone else said this), but I think it’s interesting how my idea of who should marry who so everyone will be happy changes frequently in this book. I’ve gone from wanting Thomasin-Wildeve to Thomasin-Venn and Eustacia-Wildeve, to no one better marry Wildeve because I don’t like him. I think Clym Yeobright comes home in the next book and then that’s another man in the picture so maybe he’ll marry Eustacia and Wildeve can go pine away and stop bothering people (he really annoys me).
ReplyDeleteI’m also seeing a Gone with the Wind connection to this book (as well as to A Moon for the Misbegotten), even though I won’t put down all the details. Maybe I can connect Gone with the Wind to so many things just because it’s so long. Here it’s more like Eustacia “loves” Wildeve but can’t get him and then when she can get him she realizes she doesn’t want him anymore and that she has “over-estimated” him and made up a man in her mind. The same kind of thing happens at the end of Gone with the Wind between Scarlett and Ashley. But then again this is only after Book 1 of The Return of the Native so it probably doesn’t end that way. I guess I’ll see. I read a criticism of The Return of the Native and it suggested as “related readings” Gone with the Wind (saying Scarlett is like Eustacia, so I’m very interested to see if I think so at the end) and the Mill on the Floss, which, according to “In Praise of Prose” is what Goldengrove is based on and Goldengrove is the Mill on the Floss in reverse. Haha I love connections.
-Beverly Naigles
This book read like a fairytale in the beginning. The description and personifications of Edgon Heath really set the scene for me and made it easy for me to understand the atmosphere of the story. The plot was intense, but not very fast paced. I loved the use of comic relief through the characters of Christian and his child-like father Grandfer Cantle. My favorite character was Diggory Venn because I believed that he had the best intentions in comparison to all of the other characters and he was the one who ended up with Thomasin, his heart's desire, probably as a result. The character of Eustacia did not agree with me for the most part. Most of my dislike for her was based on her arrogance and how she carelessly and continuously seemed to ruin poor Thomasin's chances at happiness. I wasn't too upset when Eustacia met her death because I knew that Thomasin's happiness or something close to happiness would result for her. Mrs. Yeobright was the perfect example of the average mother. She worried about the people she took care of (Clym and Thomasin) and when they went against her advice and warnings, she attempted to cast them off in disappointment and then quickly saw that shutting them out was not what she wanted at all. So she would come to accept their decisions and forgive them again. Clym was a little hard to figure out at first. I didn't really know what to make of him. He seemed a little blind to Eustacia's faults but I liked him nonetheless because of his unambitious desire to be an educator. Wildeve was annoying. He lacked personality minus his desire for Eustacia and his quick to anger temper. The one instance I saw the true personality of Wildeve was when he tricked Christian into gambling all of the guineas away to Wildeve. That's when I recognized Wildeve as being a truly vile person who would stop at nothing to get what he thinks he deserves. I never liked Diggory Venn better than when he won back all of the guineas for Thomasin and that kind of cleverness that Diggory showed throughout the story would have been a negative personality trait where it used for bad intentions. But Diggory used his cleverness admirably and when someone says the words "good intentions" I will automatically think of Diggory Venn. Eustacia's ambition, pride, and shame of her actions with Wildeve were the cause of Mrs. Yeobright's death. Wildeve's death was caused by his blind passion for Eustacia. I don't really know the cause of Eustacia's death other than misery and the desire to die, though I think it might be deeper than that. After the tragic death of Wildeve and Eustacia was described, I couldn't help but wonder if the position Clym was in, on top of unconscious Wildeve, was not merely a coincidence. It was never alluded to or touched on in the story, but I still can't help but wonder.
ReplyDelete~Andrea S.
I thought the scenery was a little hard to get into at first, but once I sat down to read it and spent some time doing so, I really got into the book. I have also realized that for me to be able to read the book ad retain the information that I have read, I have to read at least five chapters straight.
ReplyDeleteI was able to put a more visual picture of Egdon Heath in my head once the story began to unfold. When I realized how much I enjoyed reading this book, the scenery aspect was a part of the book that I looked forward to, in that I felt more connected to the characters. It made me feel as if I was actually there, in the story. When I am able to put myself in the characters' shoes, it's a true sign that I have really enjoyed the book.
An aspect of the book, that has has come up several times throughout the story that I cannot understand is why everyone was in such a hurry to get married. What was the rush? Most of the people who had gotten married within the pages of the book had only met a few months prior to their first meeting. And there is almost always some regret in that decision. Could their lives really be that simple?
After reading the first book I commented how fate is woven into the story early on and how I couldn't wait to see how fate directed the course of the plot. By the end of the book I had a list of times where I felt that fate was responsible for a change in the plot. Here are some examples:
ReplyDeletep. 231: Diggory Venn has luck on his side when he beats Wildeve in the dice game.
p. 296: Wildeve's uncle happens to die and leaves him with 11,000 pounds, which only makes Eustacia desire him more.
p. 291: Mrs. Yeobright is stung by an adder and tragically dies.
p. 350: Eustacia speaks about her fate and how unlucky she has been her whole life.
chapter ix: There happens to be a storm when Eustacia and Wildeve intend to escape together, and they are the only two characters to drown.
I also found the book to be very predictable. From the moment Eustacia wants to marry Clym just so she can go to Paris and he refuses, the reader can see that the marriage won't work out. She loves Clym's image and his past lifestyle, but not he as a person. I also thought that Thomasin and Diggory Venn would end up marrying eachother, which became true by the end of the book.
There was one important lesson that I took away from this book: Communication is essential in any marriage! If the characters of this book only talked, their marriages could have been saved. For example, Eustacia should have told Clym about not letting Mrs. Yeobright into the house sooner. I wish I was a character in the story and could give the characters advice!
Beverly, I'm curious what you see in Eustacia that makes you like her, and whether you continue to do so. I know she lived in a different time than we do, but even so she manages to strike me as lazy, opportunistic, and egotistical. On page 99 of my edition--near the end of chapter 10 in book 1--she expresses her desire to leave Egdon Heath, and her reason for not simply *going*: "'I knew it meant work,' she said, dropping to languor again." In an effort to get away on another's ticket, she goes on to latch onto Clym almost as soon as he arrives. Her selfishness is further revealed in her inability to comprehend Diggory's love: "What a strange sort of love, to be entirely free from that quality of selfishness which is frequently the chief constituent of the passion, and sometimes its only one!" (157). I think I share Kelsey's favoritism for Diggory Venn: he seems much more well-intentioned than other characters, and is always looking out for others. However, I also appreciate Clym's intentions of establishing a school, even though it would "harm his character" in his mother's eyes (179).
ReplyDelete-- Sol Boucher
Although I'm only in Book Three, I have a few observations from the book:
ReplyDelete- I'm really glad that Hardy often interprets clues for us, especially since we may not be able to duplicate inferences that might have been natural for readers from the time period. For instance, when he says of the reddleman, "here he selected a nook with a careful eye to shelter from wind and rain," he goes on to tell us, "which seemed to mean that his stay there was to be a comparatively extended one" (87).
- On page 122 of my edition, Eustatia's reference to "the mendacity of the imagination" gave me a major flashback to Tennessee Williams' _Cat on a Hot Tin Roof_. Did anyone else experience that?
- Eustatia and Clym seem to be very contrasting characters: Eustatia is selfish, Clym selfless; Eustacia self-destructive, Clym constructive; Eustacia calculating, Clym considerate. As Olivia said, it's clear that Eustacia's hopes for the two of them (or perhaps only herself) are all in vain.
- Several characters' actions come back to haunt them soon after executed. Eustacia's attempts to shake Wildeve off Thomasin result in an end to his attractiveness. Wildeve's attempt to conduct two relationships at once almost leaves him without either woman. Mrs. Yeobright's rush to expose Thomasin and Wildeve's "scandal" dashes her hopes of Thomasin's marrying her son (164). And what the reddleman views as helping Thomasin to be with her true love could perhaps be better described as helping to locke her away.
-- Sol Boucher
Sol, yes! I read mendacity and immediately thought of Brick!
ReplyDeleteLike Beverly, I also liked Eustacia, and her selfishness didn’t take away from that. I suppose that if I ever a class with her or something like that, I’d really start to not like her. But as a character in a book, I think she’s great. Margaret R. Higonnet, who wrote the introduction for my book, said she’s “Unconstrained by social and literary norms for female behavior…” (xvi), for her time at least. That’s my kind of girl! And, that’s not unlike Josie in A Moon for the Misbegotten. Diggory is my favorite, though, and I liked this description of him that was also in my introduction, “Diggory is not what he seems; like a coin, he passes from hand to hand as spy, story-teller, and plotter, inviting comparison to the figure of the narrator.” (xx). I thought the comparison to a coin was fitting, because they’re used by magician’s, con artists, tricksters and the like.
I also like your contrast of Clym and Eustacia. Maybe Hardy had heard the saying, opposites attract.
I think you’ll find that the theme of character’s actions and decisions coming back to haunt them only gets stronger as you continue to read.
Well, I have the other two summer reading books completed and today I finally told myself that it was time to start The Return of the Native. I grabbed the book, took a deep breath, opened to the first page, and started reading.
ReplyDeleteI read the first paragraph, and closed the book.
Maybe it's because I'm on vacation, or maybe because I know that it's the only thing keeping me from starting the summer reading essay, but I honestly cannot even comprehend what I read.
I don't know how I am going to be able to get through this novel. Any advice? Words of wisdom would be fantastic.
- Liz Elliott
Liz, keep a dictionary nearby, make sure its nice and quiet, no interruptions. I think you'll really like this one once you get started. Lots of romance!
ReplyDelete~Kelsey
I wrote this a few days ago but didn’t post it, so even though I’ve finished the book now, I’m going to post it now.
ReplyDeleteI’m now about to start Book Five (I do not like how it is called Book Fifth) and I have some other thoughts on The Return of the Native as it currently stands. One is that it’s kind of funny that at the beginning Eustacia only likes Wildeve while he’s after Thomasin, and then in the middle Wildeve only likes Eustacia once she’s after Clym. Also, you have to love Eustacia…Clym says “shall I claim you some day?” and Eustacia says, “At present speak of Paris to me. Is there any place like it on Earth?” That’s a nice way to respond to a proposal!
I have a great respect for Clym. I really like how he is turning his back on Paris and riches and is coming back to the place he loves and doing what he loves. I wish Mrs. Yeobright would understand that this is what he wants to do and just let him do it. Success isn’t measured by money. Maybe Clym was before his time; I feel like now there is a big emphasis on doing what you want to do so maybe he should live in the 21st century.
I agree with Sol that it’s nice how Hardy tries to make everything really obvious to us. I liked how he had the dice game to make it completely obvious that fate and chance really are playing big parts, because dice are associated with chance. One thing I don’t understand is how you can have skill at rolling dice…is there a special way to roll them or did Diggory just get so incredibly lucky that he managed to win all the money back?
-Beverly Naigles
Sol, I see how you could see Eustacia like that. I still like her, though as I said before it could just be because I am determined to like her. At any rate, she interests me and I care what happens to her. I don’t mean that I would want to be like her or even that I would want to be friends with her. I can respect her. I see the Scarlett O’Hara comparison even more, both in her personality and in how I feel about her as I read her story. In both, I get annoyed with the character sometimes but at other times I have a lot of respect for her (I got annoyed at Scarlett a lot more than I am getting annoyed at Eustacia, though). What I like about Eustacia is less the things she does and more who she is. I like her willpower, her fire, her staying true to herself, her doing what she wants and not what others want her to do. Does that make any sense? She is tenacious, and she will do anything to get what she wants. She probably believes that the ends justify the means. She feels a great letdown in being stuck in Egdon Heath, and I think it has taken so much out of her that she just wants to get out. She wants her own way and she believes that she is just as good as anyone else. I do disagree with her shame over Clym’s furze-cutting. I guess, even when I disagree with her, I see where she’s coming from. I can always understand why she’d do what she did; why she is so desperate, even though I wish I knew if something made her so desperate or made her hate the heath so much in the first place. She has one goal, and yes, it is selfish but one can give her some credit for clinging to that goal. That is the only reason she keeps living. So yes, maybe she does make her life miserable with her laziness. I hate to say that she is a victim of fate because I think that’s an “easy way out and don’t take responsibility” excuse, but I could say that she’s not to blame for all of her situations. I still feel for Eustacia even when I dislike what she’s doing, and I’m on her side even when I disagree with her. I guess I like the traits she shows, the tenacity, the going after a goal, the doing what she wants, even if I don’t agree with the ways she goes about them. I like that I can respect her. Like Kelsey said, my kind of girl.
ReplyDeleteI do agree with Sol and Olivia that Clym and Eustacia’s marriage isn’t going to work out amazingly well. When they start with that kind of misunderstanding between them and that much of a personality difference (Clym is happy to do what he loves in Egdon, Eustacia wants to go to Paris and climb the social ladder) you know it won’t be happy.
It’s weird, because I really like and respect that Clym is going to do what he wants, despite what the rest of the world thinks, but at the same time I respect (and like) Eustacia and they are kind of opposites. I think they are only really opposites as regards their marriage. I guess I like them both separately, but not together.
If I liked Wildeve, I might think that he and Eustacia were the perfect “star-crossed lovers” but since I don’t I hope they won’t get together, but if they didn’t then that would thwart Eustacia and I don’t want that…Eustacia, why do you love him!?!?
In a way, this book is also like A Midsummer Night’s Dream in that they all get mixed up about who they are in love with. And maybe (I just though of this) there is also a light/dark difference here? Do certain lovers only get together at night? Now that I think about it, Eustacia and Wildeve usually only meet at night. Does anyone have any thoughts/observations on this?
-Beverly Naigles
I just finished The Return of the Native, and I firstly want to say that I liked this book. It was interesting, I cared about the characters, and even though I could put it down, when I read it I really got into it.
ReplyDeleteI thought it was really cool how Hardy showed events from the points of view of many characters without having really obvious jumps between them. In English we always learn about “third person omniscient”, but I can’t remember any book I’ve read that I really felt used that until this one. I’m not sure if Return of the Native is truly written “omnisciently” but it’s pretty close!
Extending on what Kelsey said about the titles of the books sort of being able to be applied in multiple ways, I noticed that in Book 5, The Discovery, because that could be Clym’s discovery that Eustacia turned away his mother, or it could be any number of other discoveries. I also really liked how the chapter titles tell you what is going to happen. In so many books the chapters are just numbered or have one-word names that are uninformative, so I think it’s cool how here I could guess what wiould happen in the chapter just from the title. Of course, sometimes there was a twist and I was wrong!
Another thing I really liked about this book is how it made me talk to it. I know this sounds weird but sometimes when I’m reading a book that I’m really in to I will talk to it and be like “____, you are an idiot” or “Awkward!” or “Why did you do that!” This book made me do that.
I also like how I could pretty much tell what the French song meant…I love when I can do that!
As far as Diggory Venn is concerned, I liked Diggory but I didn’t find him as interesting as I found the other characters. Maybe it’s the way I read, but I think that often I enjoy reading about interesting characters more than I enjoy reading abut nice characters, even though I like nice ones too : ). Diggory was kind static, so while he was a nice person, he wasn’t a terribly interesting character.
One of the great things about this book is that the reader could choose to be sympathetic to anyone and be able to really see that point of view and justify it. It was cool to read Andrea’s comment because I think she chose to sympathize with Thomasin while I thought Thomasin was boring and did whatever other people wanted (Andrea, if this is not what you were thinking then I’m sorry and feel free to contradict me).
-Beverly Naigles
Something that I loved about this book (or at least my version) is that at the end of Book 6 Chapter 3 there is a note from the author saying that the original story did not have Thomasin and Venn marry but the “certain circumstances of serial publication led to a change of intent.” Hardy then says that readers can choose the ending they want. I love you, Thomas Hardy! The intro says that it originally did not have the sixth book, and I think that that ties into Hardy’s “other ending”. This reminds me of last year when the written and movie versions of Streetcar had different endings and we had an essay option of which one we liked better. I liked the written one. For this book, I see the benefits of both endings but I think that the no-book-six ending would have been more appropriate. It shows fate, tragedy, and so much more. When I posted about Goldengrove and people were discussing how they thought Nico was going to die, I thought that in theory I could like a book that ended in the death of a main character as long as it fit the story and wasn’t just to get rid of a character, but I couldn’t think of an example. Now that I’ve read Return of the Native, however, I have my example. I think it could have been a fitting ending that they died. However, it could also be nice to continue the story and have Thomasin and Venn marry. That almost shows a more positive side of chance, even though since most of the story is about negative sides of chance it is a bit incongruous. Book Six also starts with the “the story was told…” which says “epilogue!” to me and just didn’t seem necessary, though it does make it happier.
ReplyDeleteAs for Eustacia’s death, this may have been stated and I missed it, but was it suicide or was it an accident that she fell into the weir? Normally I would think that that was a big accident to occur, but since there is so much chance in this book I can’t be sure. If it was suicide, then was there a direct reason, or was it just that everything built up and she didn’t know what to do?
Is there significance to Clym becoming a preacher? It seemed a little random to me, except maybe to share what he learned from his life experiences with others. It almost seems like the last book is a bit incongruous, which I guess makes sense since Hardy wrote it to have a happy ending for readers.
Something else I noticed was that this book was very Victorian. They never actually say Thomasin is pregnant and I didn’t quite catch on that she was until she actually had the kid. I though she might be or she might just be sick. Characters also mostly only refer to married female characters and Mrs. _____. I had to keep track when Thomasin became Mrs. Wildeve!
Andrea, my guess is that there is some significance to Clym being on top of the drowned Wildeve. The only thing I can think of is that Clym beat Wildeve (so ended up “on top” in that battle) to get Eustacia? There’s probably a better explanation, though.
These are all the things that I remember having thoughts on. I’m sorry they’re so long, and for all I know I’ll come up with even more things!
I also agree with Kelsey that I think I would get more out of it each time I reread it.
-Beverly Naigles
Beverly, I agree that Clym is too modern for his time, and the introduction of my book said Hardy wanted to make him that way. It’s interesting that he seemed to know how people would be in the future, or maybe it was just a wild guess. I honestly don’t know about the dice, but unless Diggory was cheating somehow, and we weren’t aware of it, I think we must have just gotten lucky. Good karma, maybe?
ReplyDeleteI also love everything you said about Eustacia, just like I loved the whole chapter devoted to describing her. Hardy made her really easy to talk about and describe, and I love that. My favorite thing that you said was “…her willpower, her fire, her staying true to herself, her doing what she wants and not what others want her to do.” That’s dead on, but I can see how, Sol, you’re distracted by her selfishness. Sometimes I just wanted to shake her and tell her: you have to actually work for what you want sometimes, you know!
Also, good observation, Beverly, that Wildeve and Eustacia only meet at night, I never put that together before. I think Hardy might have done that to emphasize the clandestine, secretive element of their meetings. But actually, you missed one. When Wildeve visits Clym and Eustacia’s home on the fateful day of Mrs. Yeobright’s death, it’s daytime. Hardy couldn’t have changed it to nighttime because then Clym might have been awake, or his mother might have just figured they were sleeping. So I wonder if there’s any significance to the fact that that one meeting was during the day. It did cause Mrs. Yeobright’s death.
I agree with you on the fragmented points of views. I really like that, even though sometimes we would leave some one to go read about some one else, and I would want to stay with the first person! The omniscience of it added positively to the whole theme of fate and chance.
I also liked how the chapter and even book titles were used for foreshadowing. Hardy never put names in any of them, so sometimes I would think it would be about one person, but really it would be about some one else, and I kind of like being surprised like that.
This is hardly going to come as a surprise, but I liked the Sixth book ending that was added on at the end (what can I say; I’m just a closure person!). I did read that it was meant to be a satire on the pastoral novels Hardy wrote before The Hand of Ethelberta, which was his book just before The Return of the Native, and I can kind of see how it was meant as a spoof of those kinds of books, the cheery, not-too-scandalous, not-very-thought-provoking, Victorians. We don’t read any of those anymore because they were the chick-lit romance novels of their day.
Again, the introduction in my edition (that basically explains everything to me!) said that Hardy meant to make Eustacia’s death ambiguous so the reader could take it whatever way they wanted. That came as a surprise to me, because when I read it, I immediately thought it was a suicide, though I can see how one would make an argument for an accident. There really is no definite answer, suicide is just my opinion. It would make it the one occurrence in the book that wasn’t controlled by fate, and I like the significance of that, because it is Eustacia.
I was cut off! Well I guess they have to put a cap on us somehow. Anyway, as I was saying...
ReplyDeleteI’m not really sure about Clym’s choice of career at the end, but it did kind of fit with his original idea of higher learning for the heath folk. You’ll notice it said that not everyone really respected him, and people weren’t really paying attention to his sermon on Black (or Rain) barrow, but that they all knew the story of his life and they respected him for that, which I think is interesting. I got that is blindness was suppose to symbolize his spiritual blindness, and how he didn’t always see what others could (like his mother’s accurate opinion of Eustacia). I’m not sure, but I think this might extend to his preaching gig. See, when he told the heath people about his idea for opening a school (when they were cutting hair) they thought he should mind his own business, so maybe its just showing how and went and did it anyway and nobody really cared what he was saying. This is a tough one and I feel like I’m not quite right, but it’s an idea.
Liz,
ReplyDeleteWhen I first started reading this book, I was on vacation with several of my family members, and I had a really hard time wading through Hardy's verbiage. However, one thing that helped me get started was that my family members volunteered to read it aloud with me: we went around the room, each reading a page or two. You must understand that my family members are pretty silly, so we would inject snide little comments of our own devising as we read, and seek out humorous phrases like the "muffin-lips" description I placed in the quotations thread. This made the book pretty fun to get into for everyone except my dad--who fell asleep almost immediately when we started reading, and woke up as soon as we finished--and kept me going until the action picked up enough to give me the motivation to read it on my own. With a little familial cooperation, perhaps this strategy will work for you, too.
-- Sol Boucher
Beverly and Kelsey,
ReplyDeleteI do appreciate Eustacia's unhappiness with her home and social standing, but I haven't seen her do a whole lot about her frustration besides moping around--not to say I've finished the book yet. I agree that her willpower is something to love in her, but I often wish she would put it to better use than just complaining! To me, she seems to suffer more from an overinflated ego than from seeing herself as others' equal: she seems to describe herself best on page 259 of my edition, when she thinks, "Look at the girl for whom nobody was good enough!" Perhaps she is too persistent in looking for love: if everyone in Egdon Heath is so easy to find fault with, I'd appreciate it if she widened her search, instead of making each person into someone he isn't and then inevitably being disappointed. I think that her love for Wildeve to his for her are as sine to cosine: their love is never shared for long, and whenever one loves the other most, the desire is not reciprocated. And although I think she is more than Wildeve deserves, I can't help but think that if they do end up getting together, they might enjoy spending their free time exchanging complaints, as both are moody and temperamental.
-- Sol Boucher
I couldn't make this follow logically from my last post, so I decided to put it in a new one.
ReplyDeleteOver the past few days/hundred pages, the irony seemed to jump out at me:
- Wildeve tells Christian all the stories of men who have turned all their gambling losses into winnings, and proceeds to do exactly the opposite as soon as Venn shows up (228-37).
- Venn intends to rectify the situation with the guineas, but instead ends up exacerbating it when he inadvertently gives Clym's to Thomasin (238-9).
- Mrs. Yeobright inadvertently stumbles upon the secret of Eustacia's relationship with Damon, resulting in a terrible fight (244-5).
- The furze-cutter whom Mrs. Yeobright describes as a "mere parasite of the heath" turns out to be her own son, Clym (278)!
-- Sol Boucher
I got through this book by sitting in a car and by locking myself in my room. I can't have it be completely quiet when I read so I listened to music. However I had to listen to the same music over and over because I found that that album was the only one I could listen to and not get distracted. Which is another reason why I read in my room- no one wanted to listen to the same music again and again.
ReplyDeleteThe story itself is actually a good read. I would find myself absorbed in it without realizing it until I stopped for air. I have to admit, when I first picked up this book, I thought it would be a drag. Four hundred pages feels like a lot for a book you are required to read, but once reading it, it felt shorter. I made a bigger deal about it than necessary. You have to get over that hump and then the book gets much easier to keep up. And when you put that book down for the last time, it's a great accomplishment.
The ending of the book was fitting. I believe Eustacia and Wildeve got exactly what they deserved. And now they'll always be together without Clym and Thomasin living in embarrassment because of their spouses having an affair on the side of marriage.
If you can give Eustacia respect, than I give you props. From the moment I read about her trying to steal away the groom of Thomasin, I disliked her. I think she is very selfish and immature. She was after Wildeve from the beginning, when Thomasin was engaged to him. When the engagement was momentarily off, she had little interest in him anymore. If he's not good for Thmasin, he can't possibly be good for Eustacia. When Wildeve married and Eustacia became married as well, she then developed inappropriate feelings towards him again. She no longer lusted for Clym because he was ill and would have never given her the chance to go to Paris. Wildeve, however, had inherited 11,000 pounds and planned to go to Paris. All of a sudden, he was the man of Eustacia's dreams. She was never after love, she was after anything that will give her what she wanted, no matter the cost. No one was ever going to be perfect for her because no one could ever give her the universe. It eventually led to her death, rightfully.
I just finished the first book in this novel and I must agree with Mr. MacArthur, it starts off very slow. I am a reader who prefers the dialogue rather than the paragraphs of descriptions and details. However, once I met the characters and there were some interactions between some of them, the story all of a sudden got a lot better. It was probably just me, but when I first started reading about Eustacia, I thought she was the old hag of the heath. The way Hardy was talking about her before we met her made me think that she was mean and old. Did anyone else get that first impression of her? Of course after I met her I realized she was actually a young woman. Unfortunately, now whenever I think about her or read about her, all I see is an old woman and I'm having a hard time getting rid of the picture.
ReplyDeleteWhen I read about Eustacia and Wildeve's past relationship I started to believe that Wildeve's "forgetfulness" to change the location of his marriage license was not purposely done, but unconsciously. I believe he still loves Eustacia and I already have a bad feeling towards him. I dislike him every time I read about him and Eustacia together. Now I want Thomasin and Venn together because venn seems to genuinely love her and no one else. He would be true to her and Wildeve would always have Eustcia i the back of his mind. I guess I'm a romantic wanting real love to win and cheaters to lose.
I haven't read any of the comments above because I don't want to ruin the book for myself, but I read Book One Part One and honestly, I did not get one bit of it other than the general fact that its describing the setting. I felt like I was reading the words and processing nothing. Right now, I feel like I'm going to have a lot of trouble reading this book. Mr. MacArthur you warned us that it starts off really slow (and I agree) but that it gets better.. so I'm really hoping that it does.
ReplyDeleteI just began "Return of the Native" (roughly 5 chapters in) and I wish that there was something to kickstart this book. I know that Mr. MacArthur said this book takes some time to get going, but I prefer books that take me off to an adventurous land right away. I can honesty and bluntly say that if this book was not a requirement for summer reading, I would not choose to read it. So far, it reminds me of "Scarlet Letter" in how descriptive (however, unhelpfully so) it is... to the point that I feel like I am losing the plot and characters. I really am trying to like this book, though, and I hope it gets better.
ReplyDelete-Dylan Schiff
This book is an 19th century soap opera to me :). I am honestly kinda enjoying this book. I am currently starting book 3. But sorry to some people but I do not like Eustacia Vye. She is so vain and selfish. She is constantly jealous of poor Thomasin. First Eustacia is in love with Wildeve and doesn't want Thomasin to marry him then falls for her cousin, Clym and thinks Thomasin will steal him away too. So, in the end, of book 2, Eustacia ensures that Wildeve and thomasin marry so she can have Clym, who i hopes sees her for the female dog she is (excuse my language). Wildeve and Eustacia would be a perfect match because they are both self absorbed and too proud of themselves and use Thomasin. Wildeve marries her believing that it was punishment for Eustacia rejecting him and thought it would make her jealous. Although in fact, she wanted it that way to get Clym. Way Dramatic. While Diggoy Venn should have married Thomasin because he was willing to give up his happiness for Thomasin's. he is very selfless. So far Thomasin and Diggory are my favorite characters. But what happens with Clym....
ReplyDeleteCorri Swart
Kelsey, I think I have a different version than you. Mine has an introduction but it doesn't seem to be as good as yours and it doesn't say any of those things!
ReplyDeleteMaybe Wildeve and Eustacia meeting during the day is sort of like the beginning of Eustacia and Clym's really falling apart (I mean, they were falling apart the minute they got together, but this is the beginning of the end). It is when Eustacia turns away Mrs. Yeobright, which leads to her argument with Clym. At the same time, meeting in the day is making the relationship less "clandestine" and so that could “lead to” (in “fate”) the “breakup” of Clym and Eustacia. Or, meeting during the day is "against nature" as in shouldn't occur and so it occuring causes all the bad things to happen. Those are completely different options but you never know.
I do like that it was meant to be a satire on pastoral love stories.
Everyone knocking Eustacia (Sol, Jessi, Katie, Corri): I am going to try to defend her. I do see your point about how she seems self-absorbed, tempermental, and selfish. I agree that she is. I think that underneath that, she has some great qualities, and so while I do not condone what she does, I do respect her as a person (and she’s a very interesting character!) You probably will still not agree with me, but maybe you could understand where I’m coming from.
Sol, I think the “Look at the girl for whom nobody was good enough” (page 263 my edition) is said sarcastically; Eustacia thinks all the townspeople will say this but she doesn’t think that “no one is good enough” for her. In addition, I like your math analogy, it’s very true.
Here is one possibility I have come up with: What Eustacia has managed to do is to rise above the system. Girls, here, cannot do anything except sit at home, cook, take walks, and marry. She wants to get out. So, she uses the men, uses the system to get out. Clym will take her to Paris, cool, she marries him. Wildeve has money now, cool, she’ll hang out with him. She may love one or the other, but like she says, she really only loves Clym because she wants to love him. I think she may have loved Wildeve, but I think he was the one who came running after her post-marriage-with-Thomasin first (I didn’t confirm this, though). I know that this scenario (which may not be what Hardy intended) completely makes a mockery of love and says that Eustacia may never have been in love. It is selfish, but it shows resourcefulness, strength of mind, and tenacity. She does what she can to win. The tragedy is that she cannot. Sol, what do you suggest she does to get out? This is Victorian Britain! So yes, she has no scruples. And I see how one could dislike her for that. I wish she had more scruples. But I still respect her for who she is. (On a side note, if I sound angry in this I assure you I’m not and I’m just in trying to explain both to you and to myself). I have no idea if this is what the book is supposed to be about, or if it really is about love. It’s just something to ponder.
Maybe another explanation is to pretend you’re Eustacia. See it through Eustacia’s eyes. Sympathize with her. Books can make you sympathize with the villain, so if you think Eustacia’s the villain, actively try to sympathize with her. I’ll try to actively sympathize with Thomasin.
Sharon, it does get better.
-Beverly Naigles
Sol, I too, enjoyed the math reference (even though I didn't get it, but that's ok!).
ReplyDeleteBeverly, I like your idea that the one time Eustacia and Wildeve meet during the day, and go against their nature, causes bad things to happen- because it causes Mrs. Yeobright's death, which sets of Clym, so on and so forth. It’s the turning point! We're so clever. It was against Wildeve’s nature, because he went there simply because he wanted to see Eustacia, not talk to her, or do anything with her (if ya know what I mean…). He was totally fine with Clym being there, and he was going to make it look like a friendly, social visit to relatives.
And you're exactly right about her working the system. I’m siding with Team Eustacia. Like Mr. Mac said in one of his ideas for our theses, she lives in a misogynic world. Which, the dictionary so kindly informed me, means hatred of women. Boy is that the truth. Women didn’t even own property at that time, at least in the U.S. Sometimes a girl’s gotta do what a girl’s gotta do. She just didn’t have the kind of personality that could accept her situation and the card’s she’d been dealt, so she had to do whatever she could to change it. Eustacia was used to getting what she wanted, I think, and she was not about to let this be any different. She did kind of wallow in self-pity a bit, but she was also a teenager- 19 at the time of her death- and I know I’m definitely guilty of that on occasion. I can also really relate to Eustacia because I, too, CAN’T WAIT TO GET OUT OF THIS TOWN. Sorry, guys, sorry Tolland. Though I do have different reasons for wanting to leave, I feel where she’s coming from 100%. I guess if I didn’t have any other way out (college, career, which weren’t options for her) I’d marry a rich guy to take me around the world, too.
I do also agree with Corri that this book totally reminded me of a soap opera. Thank goodness there were no illegitimate children and evil twins.
Dylan, I thought this was going to remind my of The Scarlett letter, but I found it didn’t because I cared about and could relate to the characters. Not just Eustacia, but Clym and Thomasin, too. I also think Hardy has less imagery and symbolism than Nathaniel Allegory Hawthorne, which makes things flow easier.
I just finished reading "The Return of the Native" and I want to share my perspective on it before I read everyone else’s thoughts.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, I loved this book. I have not read "A Moon for the Misbegotten" but I do know that I liked this better than "Goldengrove". I am guessing that is contrary to most people's thoughts but there was so much more action and excitement in this book, and the characters were so much more interesting to me. Reading this book was like tuning in to a midday soap opera. It reminded me of the seventeenth century version of "Gossip Girl". You never knew who would end up with whom. My jaw dropped every time Wildeve came to visit Eustacia or everytime the reddleman popped up unexpectedly.
Also, I loved the way that Hardy incorporated Egdon Heath into the novel. I personally would love to live on Egdon Heath. I would love to be able to step outside my door and be surrounded by wildflowers. I was jealous anytime the characters took long walks on the Heath. Suburbia doesn’t exactly present that kind of opportunity. Unlike many residents of Tolland I hope to move further into the country one day, but I understand that many people want to get out of Tolland because they feel trapped here. So I liked the way that Hardy used the Heath as a retreat for some people and an enemy to others. It takes a certain type of person to enjoy living in a place like Egdon Heath, so I believe it was genius of Hardy to have the insight to set this book in a place where the setting could play such an integral part in the plot. And it is not something that people think about a lot, but where you live has a lot to do with where you go in life.
Now, I want to talk about my favorite character, Clym. He was satisfied with the simple things in life. Clym enjoyed learning for the sake of gaining knowledge. He knew what he wanted and was determined to do whatever it took to get there. He left his prestigious job in Paris because he wanted to teach. He didn’t care what other people thought about him, he just wanted to be happy. When he lost his eyesight, he went to work as a furze-cutter and never cared what anyone thought of his new profession. He saw the beauty of the Heath and understood that Paris didn’t offer that kind of beauty. Clym was living for happiness and love, while Eustacia (note: she was my least favorite character) cared about money and appearance more than anything else. She was shallow and only wanted Clym because she thought he would make nice arm candy. She threw Wildeve out as soon as she thought Thomasin didn’t want him because she would never want a man that another woman disliked. Love is not something that happens before you meet a person and Eustacia had decided to love Clym/Clym’s lifestyle before she even met him. Eustacia was like the neighborhood tramp she was always between Clym and Wildeve. Just because your husband decides not to move to Paris doesn’t mean you have the right to have secret rendezvous’ with your previous lover. Eustacia’s wish-e-wash-e attitude and her self centeredness made me sick.
wow.
ReplyDeleteThis book seems to be dragged out into the first dimension. I swear that I won't be able to finish it by the end of the year. I am only on page 41! I would love to live in Egdon Heath. Especially because of the massive bonfires that suffice as a wedding reception. It is a little unbelievable how Christian cannot find anyone to marry. I figured out that "maphrotight" means that he has no discernible sex. I must say that that is out of line for someone to say. The old time language can be somewhat confusing and I need to keep rereading certain dialogs to understand the text. Reading this book is like trying to breath through a straw for me, able to be done, though only for so long.
Heather, I completely agree with you on the characters of Return of the Native, especially on Eustacia. She was crying over the fact that she will have to remain in Edgon Heath longer and that she won't be able to go to Paris when Clym's eyesight weakened. She was only thinking of herself than her husband's disability. She even admitted to Mrs. Yeobright the only reason she married Clym because he was her ticket out of Edgon!!! While Clym thought of the welfare and happiness of others especially his family. I am currently in book 4.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous^, who are you?? Don't forget to give yourselves credit for what you write, every one.
ReplyDeleteI just finished the second book and thankfully, it gets better. It was easier to read and it was more interesting. I know that Hardy said that Thomasin and Wildeve are married, but I'm still hoping that something went wrong and they failed again. I don't like Wildeve at all. I want his pride to be hurt. Actually he and Eustacia probably go well together. They both think they can have anyone. I like the thought of Thomasin and Venn getting married. His love for her seems real whereas Wildeve's love is for his pride.
ReplyDeleteI was finally introduced to the native, Clym and I already like him. He seems like a decent man. His closeness to Thomasin has faltered he said as she's grown, but I still feel like there is a deep connection between the two. He seemed outraged at first by the scandal inoloving Thomasin, but after his mother told him what really happened, he seemed to warm up and I think his reaction was so because of his connection with Thomasin and the fact that he knows she already punished herself unnecessarily and he knows she is doing something to fix it.I wonder how he would have felt if Thomasin wasn't doing anything about the situation though. His feelings about it may be totally different.
Sorry Kelsey I forgot its Corri Swart.
ReplyDeleteI have just finished Book Third, and I must say I am disappointed with the turn this book has taken. The many allusions I had so much enjoyed reading earlier in the novel have become less frequent as the story has progressed. Also, as I have come to know the characters better I come to like them less. They have very few admirable characteristics. They are all very impulsive and don't take the time to look over thier options. In addition to this, I have tried and cannot manage to relate to these characters which makes the novel less interesting to me. Finally, the storyline itself has become less interesting. I agree with Corri's statement that this book is a soap opera. I cannot bear to watch soap operas. They bore me to no end. I hope that the second half of this book is more like Book First. I will force myself to read through it.
ReplyDelete-Erik Anderson
This book consists of so much drama. Its like the characters can't be happy at all and want what they can't have, which happens alot in reality. The characters should have thought through their choices better like Erik said. If they did this in the beginning they would have ended up with less chaos and what they wanted from the beginning. Or maybe not because they always want what is unavaiable to them.
ReplyDeleteCorri Swart
Okay so I am back from my super long adventure with my family, finished all the books while there, and it's time for some serious blogging, even though everyone has already done quite a lot of blogging themselves! It's like reading novels! WOW!
ReplyDeleteSo now I have to look back since I wasn't able to blog while reading. For The Return of the Native, I am going to do a separate blog post for each of the 6 books, starting today of course with
BOOK 1:
When I began reading a couple pages into this novel, I was completely turned off and hoped that Mr. MacArthur was right with his Warning sign...come to find out it was true. So, anyone still struggling with the beginning stick with it! Once the characters are involved, along with the plot, it gets to be very interesting and not a pain to get through, trust me...
Okay so with Book 1, besides the painstaking boring descriptions of Egdon Heath, I was curious on the type of place it was. I was traveling through all sorts of places while reading this novel, and when I traveled through vast lands of nothing, just flat lands with vegetation galore, I thought of Egdon Heath and the people inside. How is it that their life can be so different from ours and especially from people who live in the city? They must walk to get anywhere, and do not travel beyond their boundaries. They also know every single person there, and if there is a stranger that approaches everyone soon finds out who the "new" person is. I found it fascinating to be able to travel through such a place that sounds just like Egdon Heath in this novel.
Although Book 1 is boring with the descriptions of the setting, it does give a good introduction of the characters in this novel, so stick with that! The characters are so diverse and unique in their own ways, and they all have different desires and dreams. As you read more and more these dreams will be revealed to us but not to all, causing some misfortune to occur in the future. It keeps you wondering what will happen next in these characters' lives...
Lastly-the title of Book One-The Three Women, I agree with you Kelsey; I feel that it must be Mrs. Yeobright, Thomasin, and Eustacia-Clym's three women in Egdon Heath.
~Julia Lachut
I finally finished the book! Even though they are still my least-favorite characters, I have partially absolved Eustacia and Wildeve due to their conduct before their deaths. I respect Wildeve for living past some of the selfishness of his love and volunteering to send Eustacia out of the country, even if he did have secret hopes of her taking him with her. I also respect Eustacia because she doesn't ask him to accompany her: clearly, she actually thinks of Thomasin for a moment. I like to think that they wouldn't have ended running off together, since that would mortify Thomasin, who has just become a mother. Of course, The Curse of Hardy means that the two must die as soon as they seem to be shaping up. I agree, however, that this was probably the best way for Hardy to clean up the tangled love dodecahedron.
ReplyDeleteMore irony resulting from the fates' working against the characters:
- Though Charley is happy when Eustacia is at her grandfather's house, she isn't (337). This smacks of the Eustacia-Wildeve complex, where a maximum of one of the pair ever seems to be satisfied at any given time.
- Charley lights bonfires to please Eustacia, and in doing so unintentionally attracts competition in the form of Wildeve (338).
- Clym's letter arrives after Eustacia has already given Wildeve the final signal, and Captain Vye decides not to give it to her until morning (351).
In closing, I have one question: did any of the characters ever seem to realize Thomasin was pregnant before Eustacia V.2 was actually born? Maybe I missed it, but it seemed that the new character entered fairly suddenly. I'll post my favorite quotes separately under the appropriate thread.
-- Sol Boucher
I finished books three and four recently and I must say I officially like this book. I agree with everyone that says it is a soap opera in book format. The things that happen are just so dramatic. Mrs. Yeobright's dying words tell the truth of what she felt at the time when she said it but she did not mean for them to be her dying words and now that is all Clym can think about. The fact the Eustacia is the cause for Mrs. Yeobright's dying words just fits right in with Eustacia's shallowness. She sees her husband so depressed and upset and yet she decides to protect herself so that she won't get in trouble and her name wouldn't be disgraced. That whole event is so dramatic. I can't believe I'm saying this but I'm actually excited to read the next two books.
ReplyDeleteOddly enough, I'm going to have to disagree on the one good thing you credited to Eustacia, Sol. It seemed to me that she didn't take Thomasin into consideration once when planning her departure for Budmouth. I don't remember her name ever being mentioned, but I do remember Eustacia being disgusted with the idea of asking Wildeve for help in the first place, and I think the only thing that kept her from asking him to run away with her was her pride. I do agree that Wildeve did finally do something for some one else, for once, when he offered to help Euastacia. That was an improvement for him, even if he was going behind his wife's back.
ReplyDeleteYou're so good at noticing all the irony. I was terrible at that last year.
Also, I suspected, and I think Mrs. Yeobright (and, of course, Thomasin) probably knew that Thomasin was pregnant, but it was Victorian times, and people didn't really talk about that much.
I completed Book One and unfortunately, I still feel the same way as before. I still think that the descriptiveness of the Heath is detracting from both plot and character development. It seems that Hardy interrupts important dialogue with random and unneccesary comments about the landscape or some other random topic, which makes me lose the importance of the conversation taking place-- either that or I am incompetent and everything is just flying over my head. In addition, I am having a hard time connecting to the characters and their predicaments, which is making this book much longer and more drawn out than necessary. I appreciate that we are reading a book from a different time period and location, where customs and beliefs are different from here and now; it is broadening my (and probably everyone else's) horizons to the world around us. It is just hard to understand some of the allusions and dialogue in the book, and in that respect I feel that I am not getting any substance out of the book that I should. I guess overall, that I am trying to like the book , but I am struggling to find any optimistic comments about what I have read so far.
ReplyDelete-Dylan Schiff
I have a few random questions that I popped into my head as I read through Book One. I realize that they may seem unusual and unnecessary to ask, but they have been bothering me and maybe somebody else may have understood this better than me:
ReplyDeleteIs this society matriarchal or women-dominated? (I am not trying to be offensive or chauvanistic, but it seems that there are many instances when the women dominated the men.) It would seem unlike a British male author from the late 1800s to make a society set in England matriarchal.
Are these people indigeneous, nomadic, or settled? I couldn't tell from the description given thus far.
And I know that this last paragraph does not fit in this post, but I forgot to mention in my last one: it seems that the "love square" forming between Wildeve, Venn, Eustacia, and Thomasin is almost like that of "A Midsummer Night's Dream", even though the couples do not fall in love with each other's partners due to magic. In addition the continuous cycle of love and lust between these characters reminds me of "A Streetcar Named Desire" (the only reason I remember that is because of Ms. Morrison's powerpoint slide with the love-lust wheel on it). Did anyone else catch that or am I rambling about nothing and just making it up in my head?
-Dylan Schiff
Sol, I’m glad you kind of like Eustacia more, but I agree with Kelsey. I don’t think Eustacia’s not bringing Wildeve has anything to do with Thomasin. Also (agreeing with Kelsey), there are references to Thomasin’s “condition” earlier in situations about her taking a walk or something. I think this is the Victorian way of saying “she’s pregnant”. I thought she might be before she had the kid, but I wasn’t entirely sure until she did. I do agree that killing off Eustacia and Wildeve was a good way to clean up the tangle, but I think (and hope) that it was not done just to get rid of people and was also appropriate.
ReplyDeleteDylan, it gets better after book 1. From what everything/one says about the heath being a character, maybe look at the description as a sort of character development. I’m not sure if I quite get what you mean by “matriarchal”, but I’ll take a shot at it. I would say that in the society (rural England in general in this time), men have the open control, but the women are the “homemakers,” sort of the rocks that everything revolves around. From the outside, it looks like the men have all the control but from the inside really the women can influence their husbands. I read a book that described this at one point but unfortunately I don’t remember what it was. Now that I think about it, Hardy does have more strong female characters than strong male characters, which is interesting. I would guess that Hardy is intentionally making the story more woman-dominated (yeah, Hardy!) Another option, though, and I don’t know enough about British history to be sure, is that since there is a female queen on the throne (assuming this is set in the Victorian era as well), the society is changing and becoming more women-dominated. Yet another option is that, since Kelsey said Hardy is poking fun at traditional romances of the time, he is turning the gender roles inside out and having the women be the strong characters. As for your next question, I actually looked up the differences between indigenous, nomadic, and settled and have therefore learned my new thing for today. I don’t think that they are nomadic. My guess is that they are indigenous and their families have lived here forever, but they might have moved in more recently. I think it’s interesting how, after only reading Book 1, you put the “love square” at Eustacia, Thomasin, Wildeve, and Venn. I would put Clym in it instead of Venn, and I bet you will too once you get farther into his book. Just goes to show how much Hardy makes you expect one thing and gives you the other!
I also have a question. I was talking to someone else and realized that they pronounce Eustacia differently than I did. According to my mother (who is a linguist), one way shows the American way to pronounce “cia” and the other shows the British way. So, I was wondering if everyone else pronounces it “you-stay-shuh” (my way, supposedly American) or “you-stay-see-ah” (the other way, supposedly British)? While writing this, I noticed that “Eustacia” starts with “eu” which reminded me of “eukaryote”, with “eu” meaning “true” so I looked up what Eustacia meant, and apparently it means “rich of corn, fruitful; steadfast.” I think the “rich of corn, fruitful” is the more literal translation. According to some baby name website (I didn’t even know those existed!) the “eu” in Eustacia is for “good”, and it’s pronounced “YuwSTAACHah”, but of course that’s the modern way. So one, how do other people think Hardy meant it to be pronounced and two, do you think that Hardy picked “Eustacia” as her name to mean “fruitful”? I’m not entirely sure, because I don’t really see how the character Eustacia connects to being fruitful, but if someone could enlighten me, that would be great!
-Beverly Naigles
I don't know where to start. I wonder if Mr. Hardy had that problem. Did he sit down and say, 'Hey let's write down that boring introduction scene now?'
ReplyDeleteI finished the book this morning and I must say I thoroughly enjoyed this book. The plot is probably one of my favorites I've read for summer reading. The ending was a little weird though. Seeing as the book is named for Clym you would think he would have a happy ending or sad ending or something. It seemed like he just never got over his mother's death and he tried to settle for Thomasin but it didn't work out. I think the story would have been better off him finding someone to love again or him dying with Eustacia and Wildeve. I know that them dying just the two of them was in a way romantic and destiny, but I feel like Clym was just left off hanging. Maybe that was what Hardy wanted to do. For once the character to which the story revolves around doesn't get the happy ending.
ReplyDeleteBeverly, I have always pronounced it "you-stay-shuh". I guess I'm an all-born American. I'm not really sure how he wanted it to be pronounced as I was not there when he picked it out:) Seeing that he was born and raised in England I'm guessing that he always meant for her name to be pronounced "you-stay-see-ah" since that is apparently the british pronunciation. I do not picture Eustacia as a fruitful person either. I looked up the term fruitful and it said it meant producing good results; beneficial; profitable. Eustacia never produced good results. Clym's marriage to her only left them both unhappy. She was bored and unhappy with his work and he became blind. Is it coincidence or is it Eustacia bringing her doom to everyone else around her. She wasn't beneficial. She never helped anyone but herself. And she was definitely not profitable.
It’s too bad you don’t like the book so far Dylan, but I guess it happens to all of with one or another assigned book. I didn’t really get what you meant about matriarchal, because I never noticed anything about it one way or the other. If you’re thinking of Mrs. Yeobright, her husband is dead, so there’s no patriarch in that family with Clym away. I like both of Beverly’s reason, that the woman on the heath are strong and hold their family’s together- especially since men were often sent off to war, and that Hardy was switching up gender role on purpose, which seems like something he would so. I also agree with Beverly that is seems like the people of the heath have lived there for generations with the exceptions being the main characters: Mrs. Yeobright was more wealthy and only moved there after she married her husband, a poor, native farmer of the heath; Wildeve only moved when he bought the inn, it says he was an engineer in another city so he probably didn’t grow up there; we know Eustacia was raised in Budmouth, and her grandfather only moved there after he retired; Clym and Thomasin were raised on the heath, but Thomasin seems more like a native than Clym, Clym doesn’t really seem like he belongs there, even if he wants to.
ReplyDeleteI like your connection to Streetcar and A Midsummer Night’s Dream, those definitely does make a lot of sense, but the latter only before they get caught in the forest, just the whole who’s going to marry who.
Beverly, I was pronouncing it “you-stash-ee-ah”, which is closer to the British version, and I think Hardy maybe said it that way (The British way, not my way). I think maybe if Hardy took the meaning into consideration, it was to be ironic, because she destroyed more that she created. Eustacia is a feminine form of Eustace, who was Roman, martyred for turning to Christianity and became the patron saint of hunters. More irony? Not really sure if that tidbit connects at all.
P.S. Beverly, how could not know about baby name sites?! Where do you think I looked up all the names for Goldengrove, and every other book I read? I use behindthename.com. It gives you interesting information about people past owners of names, which is the only reason I know that about St. Eustace.
First off, I'm sorry if I am posting too much or repeating myself, but it makes me stay focused on reading. Now then:
ReplyDeleteKelsey- I guess I have a very unusual "talent" to completely overlook major events and character relations to focus on minor details which usually don't even happen in the storyline (more or less, I make it up in my head because to me it would make sense, but who am I to say that it really does).
I can honestly say that I did not get a lot of action in the plot or much detail about the characters in the first book. However, I was happily surprised to find that the second book so far is like an "I Love Lucy" episode. Eustacia concocts and finds herself in what I would call the funniest predicament of the book so far. For the first time since I picked up the book, I am finding myself enjoying and retaining what I am reading. Still, I can not believe that Eustacia could fall in love with a man with whom she has merely and briefly seen in the dark moonlight (page 118 in my edition). It reminded me of Tracy Turnblad from "Hairspay" singing "I Can Hear the Bells" just because Link touches her. I don't know, it just sounds too phony and unrealistic. However, I am looking forward to what is to come! :)
-Dylan Schiff
A Face On Which the Weariness of a Slow Read Makes a Huge Impression
ReplyDeleteA night in August was approaching the time of midnight, and the vast tract of unknown upper-middle class suburbia known as Tolland was lending dreams to many of the sleeping townfolk. Overhead the desolate stretch of black sparkling sky shutting out daylight as a tent which had the whole cookie cutter town for its floor.
"It was at present a place perfectly accordant with man's nature -- neither ghastly, hateful, nor ugly: neither common-place, unmeaning, nor tame; but, like man, slighted and enduring; and withal singularly colossal and mysterious in it swarthy monotony. As with some persons who have long lived apart, solitude seemed to look out of countenance. It had a lonely face, suggesting tragical possibilities."
Humanity Appears Upon The Scene, Hand In Hand With Misery
At her desk sat an adolescent girl. She was brown-headed as a brunette Rapunzel, slumped in the chair, and faded at the unguarded moment. She wore a rose blouse, worn pants of the modern skinny jean fashion, and naked feet. In her hand was a charcoal gray computer mouse, which she had purchased at a K-Mart, having perseveringly searched for the cheapest computer mouse available. One would have said that she could be, in her future days, a sarcastic commentator of literature.
Before her stretched the long, laborious road, dry, empty, and white. Others called it the comment box.
The adolescent girl frequently stretched her mind to comprehend the vast tract of unknown Tolland she had yet to transverse. She realized tragical possibilities indeed thrive in the untamed wild of Tolland, a place where slow reads are more oft than not the assigned reading literature of students.
Spoiler alert: What you have just read is dangerously similar to the tone, pace, and word choice of The Return of the Native! Shocking, I know. While re-examining Mr. Hardy's work and writing my parody of it, new appreciation for his writing grew inside me (like a weed, or a parasite). Okay, okay, so he's not exactly my style of writing, but the man had talent. The Return of the Native sets a tone for the reader, a mood for the characters, and constructs an uncommonly detailed setting - attributes that successfully steer the reader into the story. As a modern reader, my patience was tested. I am so used to immediate gratification, immediate action, immediate dialogue, immediate characters. The Return of the Native was not what I was used to.
But the novel yielded a satisfying plot - characters I could see, imagine, poke - an insular setting I could groan at, relate to. Eustacia wants to see the world? Yeah, I hear ya girl.
But, I confess, the heath had a charm of its own.
"Twilight combined with the scenery of Egdon Heath to evolve a thing majestic without severity, impressive without showiness, emphatic in its admonitions, grand in its simplicity. The qualifications which frequently invest the facade of a prison with far more dignity than is found in the facade of a palace double its size lent to this health a sublimity in which spots renowned for beauty of the accepted kind are utterly wanting. Fair prospects wed happily with fair times; but alas, if times be not fair!"
Field trip to Egdon Heath anyone?!
Sam- I admire how your thought process works, mainly because I did not find the heath to be charming. I thought of it more like a place the producers of "Survivor" would maroon their castaways- cold, unforgiving, unrelentless. As in, a place that can be described and viewed as beautiful from the outside looking in or from looking aerially; but so cruel and punishing for the people within. It could just be me, though, that looks at it that way.
ReplyDelete-Dylan Schiff
I must say it is a huge relief to have completed The Return of the Native, as well as the other two summer reading books. Now all I have left to do is write my essay!
ReplyDeleteI also read a majority of this book while I was on vacation with my family and I had to have a lot of discipline to finish it, well even to start it! Just like Liz, I closed the book after reading the first paragraph because I had absolutely no clue what I just read. To be honest, I think I read the first couple of pages five, maybe six times before I was really able to understand it! Luckily, after the sixth time I read it, it started to stick.
I’m not quite positive yet how I feel about this book. I think I have some negative feelings towards it because it was a pain to get through, but I also think the story was very interesting.
I think I’m going to take a little break and just think about the story. I want to have a better handle on the information before I start talking in depth about it!
-Dakota Gagliardi
Well I’m not sure if a couple hours of thinking is enough, but since my last post I have thought of a couple of things to say about this book…
ReplyDelete1) Setting: When I was having trouble understanding the first chapter, I decided to do a little research on Egdon Heath and this is what I found… “Egdon Heath is a fictitious heath in Thomas Hardy’s Wessex… the area is rife with witchcraft and superstition… and it is an area of moorland between Dorchester and Bournemouth in the county of Dorset, England.” Once I knew that the heath was a sort of spooky, fictitious place, it became a lot easier to comprehend the beginning of he story.
2) Characters: Eustacia Vye is very captivating and the predicaments she gets herself into are unreal! What I found particularly interesting was her relationship with Damon Wildeve and also her marriage to Clym Yeobright. Eustacia was constantly changing her mind and wanting something, or someone else. Sometimes I found it hard to keep up with her! Damon Wildeve was no better. One day he loved Eustacia, but was planning to marry Thomasin, then the next he was preventing the marriage and asking to run away with Eustacia. I think it was clear that neither of them truly knew what they wanted, or they were not positive how to make their desires into reality. Clym Yeobright was something else! While most everyone else was trying to escape the heath, he was returning for good. He found pleasure in the simple things, like teaching and living in an isolated cabin working as a laborer. This completely contrasted with Eustacia’s ideas of happiness and contributed to the end of their marriage. These three characters added so much to the story and really gave it that edge that it needed!
I’m beginning to think that I actually enjoyed this story!
-Dakota Gagliardi
Sam this making me jealous thing could be hazardous to your health- just kidding. I tried to write like Hardy and failed somewhat miserably. Beyond the very first chapter, I loved his tone, his pace, his development and how and when he changed scenes- if this had been a movie I bet the cinematography would have been Oscar worthy. And I like your comparisons to Tolland, I never thought of it that way, but you’re right. I didn’t think, Dylan, that it’s a very unwelcoming place, but I think it makes its inhabitants work for the more rewarding parts of their lives there- surviving winter means you get to see another beautiful summer, and the like. I agree with Sam, let’s go and find out for ourselves.
ReplyDeleteI spent a whole day of reading to start The Return of the Native. I was a little intimidated by what everyone had been saying about the book: it was slow and definitely not an easy read. So I began with the background on Thomas Hardy, then read the introduction, and examined his maps of Wessex. As I started A Face on Which Time Makes But Little Impression, the long descriptions made me appreciate short-and-to-the-point writing, like Tuesdays with Morrie. I told my little sister how Hardy uses the same made-up town in all of his books, and basically makes stories about his own created town (based on his thoughts on reality). Since I was babysitting and needed to keep her occupied, I suggested she do the same. So Thomas Hardy inspired my younger sister. As she formed the streets and lakes and placed where each character would live, I realized how invested she became. Thomas Hardy must have felt the same about Wessex, which made me appreciate his writing as well.
ReplyDeleteOnce I could focus beyond the elaborate wording, I discovered the heath is an interesting place. On page 11, Hardy describes, "The face of the heath by its mere complexion added half an hour to evening; it could in like manner retard the dawn, sadden noon, anticipate the frowning of storms scarcely generated, and intensify the opacity of a moonless midnight to a cause of shaking dread." Later, I anticipated some foreshadowing when reading, "it had a lonely face, suggesting tragical possibilities." The heath has a personality of its own!
I get a kick out of Granfer Cantle, being so goofy and trying hard to have a serious conversation. As I came across reading Thomasin and Wildeve's story and interactions, reading became easier. Their getting married out of wanting to avoid embarrassment made me contemplate what marriage means. It should be out of love. The townsman sang a song to the "newly weds," with a last line of "No man in the world was so loving as he!" That was quite ironic because Wildeve’s words and gestures towards Thomasin were the opposite of loving. He carelessly gave her his hand and seems terribly bored with her. He hardly tries to fake love, either.
I tried to do some research on what other people (literary critics) think of Eustacia and couldn’t find much that was helpful (and what I found that looked helpful was difficult to read). I did find a bicycle named “Eustacia Vye”, however. I also learned that some scholars see Eustacia as sort of an almost-goddess. I know the book says, “Eustacia Vye was the raw material of a divinity”. After the chapter “Queen of Night”, however, I’m not really seeing the “goddess” thing.
ReplyDeleteKelsey, I had a somewhat random thought process about St. Eustace being a martyr and Eustacia, so here goes. I have no idea if it makes any sense, but you never know. First, I considered if Eustacia could be a martyr, and I realized that she does die, so in theory she could. She would just need to have died for a cause. Dying for a cause made me think of “the mark of an immature man is that he wishes to die nobly for a cause…” and then it took me about 20 seconds to figure out where that quote was from. Once I realized that it was from Catcher in the Rye, I though about how Holden said he liked Eustacia and how Holden had kind of wanted to “die nobly for a cause” and so maybe Eustacia was immature or maybe that’s why Holden liked her. So then I needed a cause, and I thought of my hypothesis that I posted earlier about how she would do anything to escape and how girls couldn’t really do much in her world. I thought maybe the cause was to “fix” a misogynistic world. Anyway, I made this all up but tell me what you think. I feel like this is not what Hardy was going for, but you never know and it’s not like we can ask him. Which kind of stinks because I actually might write Hardy a letter but that’s not really an option. Also, as for St. Eustace being a hunter, some stuff I read talked about Eustacia being some sort of hunter and the men being “victims”, but I didn’t really get it. I like your "ironic" idea about her name meaning “fruitful”. I agree with you and Katie that she wasn't really very "fruitful" or "creator"-y. Also, "you-shash-ee-ah" is very interesting. The only other option I have come up with is "you-sta-see-ah" with the accent on the "see", sounding like "Anastasia" pronounced the Russian way. Actually, I just looked at a different baby name site and it said “Pronunciation for Eustacia: Y as in "yield (Y.IY.L.D)" ; UW as in "two (T.UW)" ; S as in "sea (S.IY)" ; T as in "tea (T.IY)" ; AA as in "odd (AA.D)" ; CH as in "cheese (CH.IY.Z)" ; AH as in "hut (HH.AH.T)", which to me seems a little weird (I’m getting “you-staa-cha”). Isn't English spelling wonderful!
Kelsey (again), I thought there were name-look-up sites that weren’t especially for parents-to-be. The one I found informed me that Eustacia is not in the top 1000 baby names in America, and that there was a character in The Return of the Native named Eustacia Vye, which oddly enough I already knew.
I apologize to everyone for constantly posting/asking stuff about Eustacia, she just really interests me and I am trying to figure her out and am kind of having trouble with that.
Sam, I love your story. Ditto on what Kelsey said about it making her jealous. Visiting Egdon Heath (or any heath for that matter), would be amazing! I just can’t picture it.
Dylan, I think your characterization of the heath as “beautiful from the outside looking in…but so cruel and punishing for the people within” is a very concise way to put it. I don’t think everyone in it finds it cruel and punishing, but I do agree that your perspective really affects how you view it.
-Beverly Naigles
After additional time to think… and after reading others comments I have a little more to say…
ReplyDeleteAudrey’s comment about love and marriage really made me start thinking about all of the relationships in this story. It seemed that right up until the end when Thomasin Yeobright and Diggory Venn married, there was not one true, open relationship that was based on love. The marriage of Thomasin and Damon Wildeve was carried about to avoid ruining the Yeobright family name. Also, the marriage of Eustacia Vye and Clym Yeobright, was based off of an immediate infatuation by Eustacia, but then carried out for her own personal gain. Eustacia used Clym in hopes of escaping the heath. One might argue that Clym loved Eustacia, however the way in which their relationship unfolded could prove otherwise.
Now a note on the ending… I actually enjoyed it! Big surprise considering I am usually dissatisfied with the ending of a book. However, I thought that the storm was the perfect setting for the final scenes and it really added to the drama. To me, the deaths of both Eustacia and Damon were unexpected but very necessary. I think that it was also necessary for Clym to survive because he was built up to be the type of character who would be the most affected by survivor’s guilt.
I must say, Thomas Hardy, I am pleased with the ending and very happy that at least two of your characters, Thomasin and Diggory, were able to marry out of love!
-Dakota Gagliardi
Beverly, I love your reasoning that makes Eustacia a martyr! It does make sense. Eustacia was definitely immature (even though she probably thought of herself as mature), and I think that she would have liked the fame and image that comes with being a martyr. Though I don't know if that's what was going through her head when she died, it’s tough to say. I can definitely see how Holden would have liked her- by trying to escape and marry for money she was kind of working the system, sticking it to man, almost, and Holden was a rebel and wasn’t fond of, well, ok, he pretty much hated society. We could call Eustacia a martyr for women in misogynic societies everywhere, and I don’t know if Hardy had that in mind but I definitely think that’s possible because he seemed pretty progressive for him time and props to Salinger for picking up on it. However, this brings up a whole other question. Do you think that Eustacia threw herself into the weir pool, or that she fell? I personally think she killed herself. I bring this up, because I think if she killed herself she might be ineligible for martyrdom (not that we can canonize fictional characters (though that would be cool, wouldn’t it? St. Dumbledore!)) whether or not she was thinking of making herself a martyr, which she might have been. Do you think she thought of that when she killed herself? If you think she killed herself, that is. I really don’t know about this one.
ReplyDeleteI can see how she made men her victims, by getting into relationships with them and maybe they had real feelings for her, but she was only in it for the passion and she ended up breaking their hearts and probably didn’t care. You could also construe her to be a hunter since I read that her telescope, hourglass and waving the torch to signal Wildeve were to give her some masculinity, and hunting is male dominated, but that seems like a stretch.
Dakota, I like what you said about Clym having survivor's guilt. I never thought about that but your absolutly right.
I have finally finished the book. I am glad to finally be through it. The most interesting part of the book for me was the beginning of Book Fifth where Clym was trying to solve the mystery surrounding his mother's death. I found it very interesting to watch him try to figure out what really happened that day. Mysteries intrigue me even ones I already know the answer to as was the case here. Overall, this book was alright. It started off well, dragged along throughout the middle, but finished off decently well. Now that I have finished this book the other two (being much shorter and supposedly easier reads) should seem like a breeze.
ReplyDelete-Erik Anderson
Kelsey, I agree with your statement “I can see how she made men her victims, by getting into relationships with them and maybe they had real feelings for her, but she was only in it for the passion and she ended up breaking their hearts and probably didn’t care.” I viewed Eustacia as a woman who threw men out like yesterdays trash when she was done with them. Although I agree with your statement I would say that she was not in it for passion but power. My mind was made up about the type of person Eustacia was after her first secret rendez-vous with Wildeve in which she says to Wildeve, “I merely lit the fire because I was dull, and thought I would get a little excitement by calling you up and triumphing over you as the Witch of Endor called up Samuel. I determined you should come; and you have come! I have shown my power. A mile and a half hither, and a mile and a half back again to your home - three miles in the dark for me. Have I not shown my power?”(pg. 69) I believe this quote captures the spirit of Eustacia’s character. Eustacia is the girl that is always leading guys on to see how far she can take it, and then when she is bored she moves on to the next guy. Eustacia knows she is beautiful and she knows how influential she is over men, and she loves using that power to play games. At the same meeting with Damon it says, “She seized the moment, and throwing back the shawl so that the firelight shown full upon her face and throat, said with a smile, ‘Have you seen anything better than that in your travels?’”(pg. 68) When Eustacia finds out about Clym’s return to town, she devotes all of her time and attention towards Clym. He is her newest challenge, if she can seduce Clym, a high class business man from Paris she will know she can have any man she wants. In my opinion, it is like the stereotype of the head cheerleader needing to date the captain of the football team just because…and if she gets the captain of the football team it just shows how powerful she is and that she is capable of getting any man she wants. But once she had Clym, she got bored so her newest challenge became getting Wildeve back so could have access to his newly inherited money. And if Eustacia had not died – whether by accident or not – I believe she would have continued to con men into loving her for as long as her beauty would last her.
ReplyDeleteNow as far as the goddess thing, I can see Eustacia being described as a goddess, but not in the sense of a glowing angel looking down from the heavens. I see her more in terms of a Greek Goddess who uses her powers for evil. Now a days I believe Goddess has a very positive connotation but in the past Gods and Goddesses could be described as evil forces. For example Medusa was a Goddess and yet she spent her days turning people into stone. So in my opinion comparing her to a divinity is quite ingenious because she does seem to be someone who has divine power. I think people are quick to toss out the idea of Eustacia being “the raw material of divinity” because divine power is often associated with God and how could someone with as many moral flaws as Eustacia be described as divine. But the definition and I believe Hardy’s implication veers more towards the concept of having powers above normal human beings. And in my opinion Eustacia definitely has power to control men that most women do not have. Although those powers are evil, I think Hardy’s references to Greek mythology show that he is more likely to think of God’s as having evil powers – as many gods did in Greek mythology – than we are today. And as it says In Queen of Nights, “She had Pagan eyes”.
ReplyDeleteI finally finished Return of the Native. And I think that Eustacia actually recieved her wish after all, to get out of Egdon Heath. She dies and never has to live there again, unless that where she is buried....
ReplyDeleteDamon also ended up being with Eustacia in a way. And I am thrilled that Diggory and Thomasin marry, which to me seems to be the only example of true love in this book.
Corri Swart
Heather, thank you, I think I see the goddess thing now. While I wouldn't say that Eustacia is bad enough to be actually "evil", I do see how she has a lot of power and that power is "goddess-like" and she’s not exactly benevolent. She can control other people, and that is what Greek gods could do. Also, she sees herself as above other people as goddesses are considered above the mere mortals who inhabit the earth. So I get it now!
ReplyDeleteKelsey, I'm glad you think it makes sense. I like your "we could call Eustacia a martyr for women in misogynistic societies everywhere". I agree Hardy seemed progressive, but I read that some people see him as very open to women being equal to men while others see him as a misogynist. Apparently someone wrote an entire book about Hardy’s attitude toward women. You can read part of it online at: http://books.google.com/books?id=H7DWVb8H1_4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=was+thomas+hardy+a+misogynist&source=bl&ots=xL0zFtJ6hj&sig=KZYyaw00IOQbg8XeCPYyFu2nS2g&hl=en&ei=y29hTOSvGoT7lwfrg6WmCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CC8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=was%20thomas%20hardy%20a%20misogynist&f=false. I think this would be an interesting book, even if is does look rather dense. The second paragraph says “What emerges is a conflicting picture of a man and artist [Hardy] who espouses certain revolutionary ideas on women’s rights but who sometimes fails to transcend the gender-stereotyping so characteristic of his age. Thus, while his sympathy for the wronged, exploited or marginalized women is forcefully and unequivocally expressed, what is also simultaneously revealed are some of his fears, uncertainties, reservations and tensions: the natural inheritance of patriarchal ideology and a predominantly male literary tradition.” I like this. I think it helps characterize the uncertainly I feel about how Eustacia is portrayed. Anyone have any thoughts? I think I said earlier that I wasn't sure if she killed herself or it was an accident. I'm not exactly sure what the requirements for martyrdom are, but I think she could be a martyr if she killed herself to make a statement or something, at least in the context of this book. You could say that the misogynistic society killed her (indirectly) and so she can still be a martyr. I still think the death is meant to be mysterious, as you said your introduction said a while ago. Part of me doesn't want her to have killed herself because it seems like she's giving up, but part of me says it lets her win because, like Corri said, she finally gets out of the heath. But since Hardy was big on fate, maybe it was an accident. If she did kill herself, I don't know what she was thinking. I don’t think she wanted to be a martyr or thought about being a martyr, but I don’t know if she killed herself (if it was on purpose) because that one night was too much for her or if it was just everything and she was tired of living there in the heath.
Dakota, I like the survivor’s guilt thing. This could also be why he ended up being a preacher, since he felt guilty.
-Beverly Naigles
Heather, good catch on Eustacia doing it for the power. Some people get off on power, and she looks like one of those people.
ReplyDeletePart of the reason I like Hardy so much, Beverly, is that he seems to have a fair view of women, and I think that book would be very interesting after I’ve read more of his works. I can agree with what the author wrote in the part that you posted- Mrs. Yeobright and Eustacia die (as compared to only one man) died in the story, and Thomasin does end up married with a baby. I understand that some pretty bad things happen to the main character in Tess of d’Urbervilles, so these may be examples of his “…natural inheritance of patriarchal ideology and a predominantly male literary tradition.” I like the idea that society killed her, and I agree with what you think about her goddess-esque qualities.
I'm back with more of my mixed-up and not-making-sense logic! Yay! I've completed Books Two and Three of "Return of the Native" and I am surprisingly enjoying it now. I love that the plot has thickened and we can finally see all of the characters' qualities which Hardy talked about (endlessly) in the first book. It took me a very long time to get used to Hardy's style of writing, but I think that I have finally grown accustomed to it. Now for my thoughts about the characters:
ReplyDeleteVenn- I wish that Venn was more involved in the story! He is so mysterious and always appears at the most unexpected, yet pivotal, moments of the story. He seems to always be hidden away in the background, but he is such a fun and important character! In this respect he is my favorite character. I find it so honorable of him to say to Eustacia, "I would have sooner married [Thomasin] myself, but what I feel is that if she cannot be happy without [Wildeve] I will do my duty in helping her to get him, as a man ought (154)." It is one of the most powerful quotations of the book and, in my opinion, Hardy should have left out most of the first book and replaced it with this one quotation to reflect Venn's character.
Eustacia- Like Beverly and Kelsey, I like Eustacia's character, although not quite as much. (I think her name is pronounced "yoo-stay-see-uh".) She seems very determined to get what she wants and she thinks very strategically. I think she would be more well-liked if she were to not have loved both Wildeve and Clym Yeobright.
Thomasin- I love to hate Thomasin! She is such a villainess! I wish that she did not only love to make Eustacia jealous! (I may be wrong about that, but that's what I've gathered about her so far.) I hope that Hardy was foreshadowing something bad in her future by saying "Her history as Tamsin Yeobright was over (168)." It made her sound as if she not only her identity, but her character, died. Then again, how good would the story be if she left it when the plot finally thickened?
Wildeve- Honestly, I hate Wildeve. It is so disrespectful to love two women and be so arrogant as to say that there must be plenty more women who would die to get him. I can't stand him! He voluntarily marries Thomasin, but on page 241 he sees Eustacia: "Wildeve forgot his loss of the money at the sight of his lost love". I would not be surprised if he attempts to get Eustacia back, too. Unless something changes him and makes him a dynamic character, I will not be pleased with his character.
Clym- Can his yearning to build a school be considered a midlife crisis? Other than that, I don't really know what to think of him. I'll have to read more to really decide whether or not I like him. Although this doesn't pertain to him specifically, I must ask, if the novel and books within it are titled for him, why is the point of view third person limited?
Mrs. Yeobright- My least favorite character (although, I think Hardy may have intended for her to be hated based on her portrayal). I hate that she is so judgmental and opinionated. On page 167, she describes Eustacia as "a proud girl of Budmouth, one not much to my liking"; to my knowledge, they never talked or met in person! She is also a control-freak over Clym and Thomasin. I would never treat my family the way she does! How can she so obsessed with her name being disgraced and not let people who are in love (or at least appear to be in love) be happy together!? She seems very selfish too. “How can [Clym] bear to grieve me so [by falling in love with Eustacia], when I have lived only for him through all these years (218)?” Do you think she would she react the same way if Clym did the same thing with anybody in Paris, or really anybody else in Egdon Heath? I honestly cannot tolerate any more of her opinionated poppycock.
Finishing up Mrs. Yeobright- Her perception of her power over her family is so twisted! (Last quotation bashing Mrs. Yeobright for now, I promise-) On page 160, she says to Thomasin "I can do nothing. It is all in your hands now." Don't you think that Thomasin's love and happiness was up to her from the beginning!?
ReplyDeleteAnd as far as Heather's description of Eustacia being a goddess, Hardy says on page 213 (end of Book Three, chapter five) "Eustacia was now no longer the goddess but the woman to [Clym], a being to fight for, support, help, be maligned for." It seems that her love of Clym has relieved her of such an evil status. As always, I may be (and most likely am) wrong; all of you who have been talking about it have gotten through more of the book than I have or have finished it.
Beverly and Kelsey after reading your discussion about whether Eustacia jumped into the weir-pool or fell in by accident I was not sure what to think. When I read the book the first time I got a totally different impression of why Eustacia ended up in the weir pool. I got the impression that her death was the doings of black magic or voodoo performed by Susan Nunsuch. I know it sounds a little crazy and after reading your discussion I went back and reread the end of the fifth book to make sure I wasn’t losing my mind. Rereading it only reassured my beliefs. It says on page 345, “In these desultory ramblings she passed the cottage of Susan Nunsuch, a little lower, down than her grandfather’s. The door was ajar, and a riband of bright fire-light fell over the ground without. As Eustacia crossed the fire-beams she appeared for an instant as distinct a figure in a phantasmagoria – a creature of light surrounded by an area of darkness: the moment passed, and she was absorbed in night again. Then on page 350 it says, “Susan’s sight of her(Eustacia’s) passing figure earlier in the evening, not five minutes after the sick boy’s exclamation, ‘Mother, I do feel so bad!’ persuaded the matron that an evil influence was certainly exercised by Eustacia’s propinquity.” With the decision that Eustacia was up to some wrong doing Susan proceeded to make a wax figurine of Eustacia even detailing it with Eustacia’s clothes from that night. Then she proceeded to stick the doll with as many as fifty needles with “excruciating energy”. Then she decimated what was left of ‘Eustacia’ by melting the remains of the wax doll in the fire. As she does this it says “And while she stood thus engaged there came from between her lips a murmur of words. It was strange jargon – the Lord’s Prayer repeated backwards – the incantation usual in proceedings for obtaining unhallowed assistance against an enemy.” (pg.352) The next time that we see Eustacia is when Wildeve and Venn find her in the weir-pool. In the end my take on Eustacia’s death was that it had nothing to do with a choice to jump in or an accident but voodoo.
ReplyDeleteAs I am writing this it makes way more sense than it did when I was reading it because it all ties back into Eustacia being a divinity. Someone who has unsurpassed power over people couldn’t die by normal means. In order to kill Eustacia it took the power of a greater force and that force was called upon by Susan Nunsuch as she destroyed the voodoo doll of Eustacia. And in a sense I also think it ties back into Hardy’s use of fate. Eustacia has spent the whole book using her “goddess” powers to get people to do what she wanted and in my opinion her forces were far from having good intentions. So it seems only right that Hardy would put the same fate on Eustacia that she put on others by killing her with a power that is above her.
Dylan, I thoroughly enjoyed your use of the term 'opinionated poppycock'...still laughing. And the fact that you compared Egdon Heath to a setting for the show 'Survivor'? Still laughing... Fun fact: I've always wanted to be on that show. Maybe that's why I see charm in the heath!
ReplyDeleteBeverly and Kelsey, let's start planning for that field trip =D
Heather, you do a good job of building a case for the greek goddess connection to Eustacia. I approve! ... "Now as far as the goddess thing, I can see Eustacia being described as a goddess, but not in the sense of a glowing angel looking down from the heavens. I see her more in terms of a Greek Goddess who uses her powers for evil." and "She had Pagan eyes". Evil? Yes, perhaps - but to be honest, I like the girl. She made for an interesting story. Bash her all you want, but I'mma Eustacia fan. Oh! And did you know there's a song about her? Yup. I found it on youtube and it is quite humorous.
Theme? If in fact you do not think theme discussion is overrated and you are tempted to take my bait: What exactly is Hardy trying to say about love?
"To Sorrow
I bade good-morrow,
And thought to leave her far away behind;
But cheerly, cheerly,
She loves me dearly:
She is so constant to me, and so kind."
Yours Truly,
Sam
Heather, I hadn’t realized that before when you were talking about Eustacia’s goddess qualities that you thought (or seem to think) that she actually has some sort of magical or divine power. I don’t think that she does- this isn’t a fairy tale. I didn’t even think about Susan Nunsuch and her voodoo doll because it didn’t seem like anything more than foreshadowing. I don’t think that Eustacia is an actual goddess or in any way divine or “has power to control men that most women do not have”. Thomasin could have wrapped Wildeve, or even Clym, around her finger if she wanted to. At one point, on the night of their failed marriage, she says to her would-be/soon-to-be husband “by rights you should be deploring me, your cruel mistress” (to get married). She just chose not to. Eustacia devoted her whole self to that, and so honed her craft, and certainly became very, very good at getting men to do what she wanted. I think any women could influence men for than they’d like to admit if she chose to, but most of us don’t (this is so awkward for Dylan right now I bet. Sorry buddy!). Also, I don’t think that being comparable to a goddess makes her evil. I hope that whole thing didn’t sound mean or argumentative, it’s just my opinion.
ReplyDeleteOn to Dylan- I think it’s interesting that you don’t like Thomasin! It never looked to me like she was trying to make Eustacia jealous- I was always under the impression that she never more than suspected Eustacia’s romance with Wildeve until later in the story, but maybe I missed something. I always thought she was the good girl, just trying to be respectable and settle down. Also, that quotation I took to mean that she was a married woman now (because isn’t that right after their “wedding”?) and she would from then on be identified as such. Hardy does call her Mrs. Wildeve several times after their marriage.
This is all getting so weird- we’re all reading the same thing, but we’re all taking it to mean totally different things.
Sam, I’ll get back to you on the theme of love. This is going to require some mulling over.
Kelsey- As far as the "losing her identity" quotation goes: yes, it was after Thomasin marries... but I felt that the placement of the sentence and the chosen words to make up the sentence give it some sort of magical foreshadowing or other such nonsense. And for Thomasin's character: I don't really know if what I said made sense or had any validity, it is just my impression of her.
ReplyDeleteSam- First off, please take into account that I have only completed the first three books and change of the fourth. I think that Hardy is trying to compare the different types of love and relationships- from the genuine to the materialistic (marry for money or other such possessions) to the family-chooses-for-you-and-leaves-you-miserable to the marry-for-power. I don't know if that is necessarily true or valid, but so far that is the impression I've been getting from Hardy since we're seeing couples love each other or marry for all of these reasons throughout the book (at least, so far).
I'm about half way done with this book so far, so I dont want to read any other commments just in case they ruin the ending. I just want to say that when I started this book, I didnt think I would like it at all. I found it hard to understand and difficult to get through. But once I started getting used to how the author writes, and when the dialogue started it got a lot easier. I don't really like the descriptive parts of the book because those are the parts that can be tedious to read, but I'm really surprised at how good the story is!
ReplyDeleteI completed Book Four today and I have just realized that this book is very similar to "Their Eyes Were Watching God"- women are looking for a man to marry who will give them the ability to live out their dreams, no matter how many husbands it takes or the number of bad situations they find themselves in. I also must say that I am shocked at how much of a role fate, coincidence, and karma play in the book! Lastly, I would like to say that if I could change one thing about this book, it would be to include more comic relief, especially in Book One. I loved the comic relief that Hardy included in Book Four. I think that his use of the innocence of children to create a lighter atmosphere was genious, and I wish he used more of that in Book One to relieve some of the tediousness he created from his excessive use of details.
ReplyDeleteMy plan is to write what I'm thinking first, and then read other comments when I finish reading.
ReplyDeleteI found it interesting how the author, a lot of times, doesn't use a specific name until after the character is described. Diggory Venn and Eustacia's names were only revealed once they were talked to. At first, I thought I was going to like Eustacia. She wanted "to be loved to madness." She seems captivating, because she longed for intense emotions and acted differently than the Yeobright's. This rebellious stereotype defines her. As I keep reading, it seems that Eustacia is the women in the middle of a complicated, Victorian soap opera. She loves a man until one more appealing comes along. She doesn't want a tame love, but I don't think she understands that love is more than a fleeting emotion. She needs something to live for. Beside her love life, Eustacia doesn't enjoy relaxing unless others are doing work. She has a husband who is content without material things, and she looks down on him for it. "Clym, the afflicted man, was cheerful; and he even tried to comfort her, who had never felt a moment of physical suffering in her whole life” (Page 257). I realize I am a little harsh on Eustacia, because she has suffered emotionally. I can't help but think, though, that she has the power to do something about her state of unhappiness.
Diggory Venn is pretty cool, I'd say. He's always there to save the day for Thomasin, and she's not even aware! Eustacia comments, "What a strange sort of love, to be entirely free from that quality of selfishness." I usually root for him, because he has good intentions. I admire Clym in a lot of ways too, but everyone in this story is so tangled in the drama of pressures and passion.
Wow there are so many comments! Okay now I said I was going to go through each of the six books and comment on them in different posts everyday but life got in the way. I started with Book 1, and finally getting to a computer today while babysitting I am going to finally continue now:
ReplyDeleteBOOK 2:
The title of this book is called The Arrival, and I can guess as to why. This is the time in the novel where the descriptions and introductions end and now Clym arrives on the heath. The plot begins and dynamic characters start to come to life. This is the part of the novel I began to enjoy, so anyone who is only on Book 1 and still finds it a pain to get through, like Dylan stated earlier, honestly stick with it because it does get better and you might just start enjoying it like I did.
In Book 2, the dialogue and interactions always caught my attention between the main characters; Clym, Eustacia, Wildeve, Thomasin, and of course the reddleman. They are all so different and portray different stereotypes and it was fascinating to me to keep reading on, wondering what will happen or what will these characters say next.
My favorite part of Book 2 has to be when Eustacia has to marry off Wildeve and Thomasin. Fate causes the many twists and turns in your life! It may not be too fun at the time for you, but its fate and thats why you just have to enjoy it and go along for the ride.
~Julia Lachut
Liz, when I read your earlier post about how you picked up the book, read the first paragraph, then closed the book I started laughing. Why, you might ask? Because I did the same exact thing, first paragraph and closed the book. I thought to myself, wow I’m going to need to keep a dictionary with me at all times, when reading this book. So I decided I would read A Moon for the Misbegotten first, and then I would come back to The Return of the Native. Was that a mistake, who knows, but I must say, between the style of writing and intense vocabulary along with the size of the book, I’m not going to lie, Return of the Native looked intimidating.
ReplyDeleteI have finally finished the book, The Return of the Native by Thomas Hardy. Like Mr. MacArthur said, the descriptions in the beginning would be tough but once I got into the dialogue the book picked up nicely. My favorite part of the book, that I found captured my attention the most, was the relationship between Diggory Venn and Thomasin Yeobright, especially towards the end of the book. I loved their harmless passion for one another. Minus all the intense descriptions, this book very much resembles a typical television show, like Corri said. All the characters have their own endless problems, and once you think it’s all resolved, more problems get added in. Ultimately, I don’t think anyone can be happy in these types of literature/soap operas, but thankfully Thomasin and Diggory were, in the end of the novel.
Also this book had some intense love triangles.
-Eustacia, Wildeve, Yeobright-
-Thomasin, Wildeve, Diggory-
and let’s not forget Charley, the unfortunate man who was madly in love with Eustacia.
Characters:
ReplyDeleteEustacia Vye is a very confused woman in regards of her love life and I don’t know if she truly ever has one, she’s focused on all the wrong reasons to marry. She is blinded by her desire for “adventure”, which is anywhere but the Heath. Mostly her actions were unintentional, first she fell in love with Wildeve, thinking he might be her knight in shining armor, but unfortunately her dreams were shattered when she finds this to be untrue. Wildeve throughout the entire novel, truly loved Eustacia but after being turned down by her, he marries Thomasin. Afterwards Eustacia had her heart set on Clym Yeobright, the “heroic” gentleman from Paris, someone who could potentially sweep her off her feet and whisk her away and out of Egdon Heath. I do not doubt that at one point she did love both Wildeve and Yeobright but ultimately she was focused on a much bigger picture, getting out of the heath, where she felt trapped. Clym soon realized his wife neglected to tell him his mother came to visit the day she died, and even worse refused to invite Mrs. Yeobright into the house. So after Clym became aware of this, Eustacia left her husband and was forced to find someplace to stay elsewhere. This was the lowest point in Eustacia’s life, because she would have gone so far as to kill herself if it wasn’t for Charley, who was hopelessly in love with her. In my opinion, Eustacia was a very selfish person, who would go at all cost to get what she wanted, and didn’t care who she walked all over to get it, in her case, off the heath. This is why Eustacia is my least favorite character, her intentions and negative personality/outlook on life just didn’t appeal to me. Running away with Wildeve, and having no regards for her husband, Clym, Wildeve’s wife, Thomasin, and especially her poor grandfather, proved her to be selfish. Once Eustacia was informed of the wealth Wildeve had come by, after his family member dies, she jumped on the idea of running off with him, and since Wildeve was still head over heels in love with her, he didn’t see any problems in this plan. I also feel as though it was sort of predictable that Eustacia would die trying to do the one thing she desired most, escape, and that Wildeve would then die for the one thing he desired most, his only true love, Eustacia.
Damon Wildeve, although I didn’t particularly like him, wasn’t a bad guy, in my opinion, just blinded by his love for Eustacia. He didn’t mean to hurt Thomasin, and maybe he believed marrying her would erase all the feeling he still had for Eustacia, but ultimately she was bound to get hurt given the circumstances. However, all his actions could have been done in a less destructive way, towards the people around him, especially his wife, Thomasin. For example, he should have stopped pursuing Eustacia once he got married and especially after she got married herself.
Characters Continued…
ReplyDeleteDiggory Venn, the reddleman, was my favorite character and the sweetest guy in all of Egdon Heath in my book, in regards of his actions towards the one he loved, Thomasin Yeobright. Although his plans and scheming came across as devious and untrustworthy, he always stayed true to one person, Thomasin, and therefore I can conclude that he did indeed have good intentions. Thomasin Yeobright believed too much in the good of Wildeve, and that maybe they would come to have a happy marriage. She didn’t like to believe that something wasn’t right with Wildeve and their marriage; she would just “shut her eyes”, in hopes that it would all go away. And even though Thomasin didn’t see this or want to see it for that matter, Venn did, and he used his work as a reddleman (in that he travels), to investigate everything that happened in the Heath. Diggory Venn knew of the secret meetings between Eustacia and Wildeve, and thus he began his mission to expose their relations, which could bring him and Thomasin closer together. Venn was the kind of guy that would give his love the world if he could.
Clym Yeobright, the protagonist, and the reason behind the titling of the book, him being the “native” that he his returning back to his hometown, on Egdon Heath, is a very practical, driven man. He’s driven by his desires to fulfill his life, in happiness and satisfaction and not so much by money and wealth; this being his reason for leaving his Paris life and returning home to the simple pleasures of the Heath. Clym was a caring person, he cared for his mother, Mrs. Yeobright, he cared for his cousin, Thomasin Yeobright, and he cared for his wife, Eustacia Vye, the three women in his life on the Heath. And although his troubled feelings (of “killing” women) and sudden outbursts of anger might make one think otherwise, he truly did love them. The events that occurred on the Heath since the time he returned from Paris pushed him into a career of preaching so that he could share his story to all, and help others learn from his journey, we call life.
This was a beautifully crafted story about love and it's consequences on a Heath in the middle of nowhere. That being said, it was probably the dries and most difficult book of the three to get through. Seeing as I read it at 8 am before swim practice (I strongly recommend against it) I was only able to read it in 20 page segments before I got tired and started falling asleep again. Through the grogginess, I did understand most of the plot and it's nuances. Granted, this got easier as the plot picked up. I saw Eustacia as a very shallow and a relatively conceited character. I was especially annoyed when she was complaining about Clym having to work as furze cutter (if anyone would like to help me understand what furze is, please help me). I understand that this was written in a different time, but if Eustacia loved Clym, she should have supported him when he really needed help. Clym struck me as the most admirable character in the book. He came as a big shot from the city, and came into a place where life is about as slow as it could possibly be. He then decided to help the people by becoming a school teacher, a stark change from being a city man. When he decided to do it, he studied and worked himself to the point where his body failed before his will. After that, he didn't want to live off of saved money, he wanted to work and earn a wage to at least try and do something constructive for his community.
ReplyDelete-J Aldin
Okay I am finally home and am going to finish blogging for this novel. Onto BOOK 3 and 4:
ReplyDeleteIn this book a lot of action was portrayed that I thoroughly enjoyed. I loved following the life of Clym for a little while, then Eustacia, and then the heath. These characters are so diverse and unique it was very entertaining to see their lives combine.
Clym, a star of the Heath coming from Paris, is honored by his great life and yet he decides to come back to his hometown and try to help the people of the Heath. He has had enough of the adventure and returns home for the quiet and nature heath. This is the complete opposite of the one he falls for...
Eustacia. I agree with Megan and say that Eustacia is a confused and selfish woman seeking for adventure and longing for love in all the wrong reasons. She seeks the adventure in marriage and not the desire to want to be with someone for the rest of your life, in good times and in bad. She longs to get out of the heath and go be someone special in Paris.
I found it quite hilarious that these two came across each others paths in Egdon Heath and thought they were destined for each other, when in reality, they are opposites longing for two separate lives. This of course leads to some interesting outcomes in the future...
~Julia Lachut
I love how Venn is always there for Thomasin. I feel like the characters in this book are split into the "bad guys" and the victims. I think Thomasin, Venn, Clym and Eustacia are the victims, but Mrs. Yeobright and Wildeve are the "bad guys." I really don't like how Mrs. Yeobright treats her kids. I feel like she's only thinking about herself and how other people think of her, but she doesn't really care for Clym and Thomasin's happiness. And of course Wildeve is just not nice. The rest of the characters I mentioned as victims are just people who are in circimstances that they don't like, and can't control.
ReplyDeleteI’ve read up to page 75 of The Return of the Native. Here are my thoughts:
ReplyDelete1. Thomasin is a woman?!?! What the heck? The name ‘Thomasin’ is clearly a man’s name, just as ‘Alexanderin’ and ‘Michaelin’ would be as well. Therefore, for all intents and purposes for me, Thomasin is a man. However, I felt it was necessary to retain the current balance between men and women, so it was necessary for a man to become a woman. Therefore, Clym, whose name could be used for either a man or a woman, is now a woman. Of course, this means that the relationship between Thomasin and Wildeve is a gay one. Maybe gay marriages are legal and accepted in Egdon Heath; if so, they are several decades ahead of us. Or maybe they aren’t, seeing as Mrs. Yeobright doesn’t seem to be very happy with Thomasin marrying Wildeve.
2. It seems to me that Mrs. Yeobright’s fuss about the marriage mishap was seriously overblown. It’s not a big deal, for goodness sakes! Thomasin and Wildeve should just go to Budmouth as soon as possible, get the correct license, and get married. Mrs. Yeobright is fussing needlessly.
3. My first impression of Eustacia was a rather negative one. One reason is that she apparently likes Napoleon Bonaparte, who was possibly one of the biggest idiots this world has ever seen. Also, she seems to be tempting Wildeve to commit adultery by abandoning Thomasin for her.
~ Gregory Naigles ~
Last blog post: Book 5 and 6...
ReplyDeleteAt the end of this novel, during book 5 and 6, all the action occurs and there was a twist of fate as well. I won't give anything away for those still reading, but when I read this on vacation, it was during these two books that I really enjoyed the novel and was engrossed in what was going to happen next.
In my opinion, it was like a domino effect. Once one tragic event occurred, it was followed by the next and yet another, until there was peace and serenity on Egdon Heath. It was a very tragic yet calming ending, as everything ended up working out for Clym and his plan that he had wanted. Although I don't like tragic endings, I was satisfied at the end of this novel. I felt that everything worked out with fate and since there was no real main character I could connect with, I wasn't that attached to any one character. I feel that may be one reason as to is why this novel left me satisfied at its close.
Whatever the case, I am glad that I was able to read this novel over the summer of 2010. Whether it was because of the connections I made while on my vacation or just because I enjoyed reading a classic, I am grateful that Mr. MacArthur chose this novel, and the other two as our summer reading. This was the first summer I actually enjoyed and finished early reading the three books assigned.
Although it has been quite a busy summer, the blog and essay will also be very beneficial to the start of of senior year, so anyone still struggling, keep with it and bring out your inner joy of English-I know everyone has it inside of them!
Can't wait to see everyone in two weeks. Enjoy finishing your books and good luck with your essay. Most importantly, enjoy the last two weeks of summer!
~Julia Lachut
A lot of people seem to be commenting on Eustacia Vye's character. To be perfectly honest, I can't see why. I feel that she is totally unappealing and selfish. Perhaps it's the fact that we can relate to her situation, or that she goes against societal norms. I don't feel that it's enough; I don't like Eustacia at all. She seems like the typical succubus, a beautiful woman who seduces men in order to possess them and take everything that they have.
ReplyDeleteClym Yeobright is much more interesting to me. The natives of the heath seem happy, for the most part. They enjoy life without thinking too much about it. They live in a simple time, and are perfectly fine with being simple people. Clym treats life like a burden. He's much more stoic and thoughtful than those around him. Could this be a criticism on urban life? Clym is the only one who spent time living in a city. He is hopeless and unhappy when he returns. Is Hardy saying that, despite having more money, people who live in the city are less happy than people who live in the country? It's said that money can't buy happiness, and this novel certainly seems to support that idea.
I just finished book three. It took me a while to get started, but I'm really becoming interested now.
Also- I agree with Gregory. Thomasin is definitely a guy's name.
-Birdie St. Pierre
Up to page 150, and many more gay relationships have entered the book. Wildeve is clearly gay, seeing as he likes Thomasin, but he's trying to hide it by also being in love with Eustacia. Eustacia, however, may be a lesbian, seeing as she definitely likes Clym and doesn't seem too fond of Wildeve. All these relationships, and which characters are gay or straight, are becoming confusing. The only major character who I'm sure is straight is [none] (unless Mrs. Yeobright counts as a main character).
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that Hardy was trying to make a statement on gay rights more than 100 years before it became a major issue. It's a shame nobody noticed it then, otherwise the issue might have been resolved by now.
Also, I still don't like Eustacia. Along with the other reasons I mentioned earlier, she seems to think that she is somehow more important than everyone else. She doesn't seem to believe in equality for all.
Other characters: Thomasin is too meek; he needs to assert himself and not let his comandeering aunt boss him around. Wildeve: Not bad, just extremely indecisive (of course, I'm used to extreme indecisiveness; a member of my family who you may know is extremely indecisive). He needs to make a decision and stick to it. Diggory Venn: Dedicated to Thomasin (so he must be gay as well). I agree with people who are saying he's a good guy. Clym: I don't know much about her yet, but my first impression of her was positive. And Mrs. Yeobright is still too bossy.
~ Gregory Naigles ~
Gregory, no comments allowed on family members' potential indecisiveness. Totally not cool.
ReplyDelete-Anonymous
Just so everyone knows, I'm 99% sure that the post above this one was written by Beverly.
ReplyDelete~ Gregory Naigles ~
I should probably just let it go but Thomasin is definetly a girl's name, though a masculin-sounding one at that. Hardy simply left out the 'a' in Thomasina! Also, several times she's refered to as Tamsin, which is a nickname for Thomasin(a) (which is a feminine form of Thomas). http://www.behindthename.com/name/tamsin
ReplyDeleteI read some where that Hardy named her after himself, so I wonder if he was trying to tell us something about himself through her? Or if he just wanted his name to live on? He never had any children.
Kelsey said, "Hardy simply left out the 'a' in Thomasina!"
ReplyDeleteKelsey, do you have any proof of this? And just because Thomasin is referred to occasionally as 'Tamsin' does not mean that he is female. Nicknames can be very random and misleading at times.
I do agree that 'Thomasina' is a female name, however we can't just randomly add an 'a' to a name in order to make the character the gender you think the character should be.
And Hardy naming Thomasin after himself is just more proof that Thomasin is male, because obviously Hardy was male as well, and if I wanted to name a character after myself, the character would almost definitely be male!
Thank you for backing me up.
~ Gregory Naigles ~
Gregory- Please don't be offended when I say that reading about your male versus female naming debate gave me a rather big headache. Many names can be used for both genders (such as Taylor, Dana, Dylan, Pat, Chris, etc). And also consider the fact that Hardy uses pronouns which specify Thomasin and Eustacia as "she" (women), and Clym, Diggory Venn and Damon Wildeve as "he" (men).
ReplyDeleteOn another note, I was at a week-long sleep away camp for the past week, and only had enough down time to complete part of book five. However, I feel obligated to post that I have become absolutely engulfed in the plot and I love the characters- yes, I even love Mrs. Yeobright and Wildeve now, even if it is in a love-to-hate way. I also think that Susan Nonsuch is a bit of a witch herself. She seems to play a crucial role (however minor a role as it may seem). She has been using quite a bit of "dark magic" and it is surprising to read that she is superstitious. In addition, I would like to say that I wish that Christian and Johnny Nunsuch were seen more in the story to provide more comic relief. I also wish that Venn made more appearances because it seems that his only role is to only cause "chaos" and then leave as the others try to reorganize the mess. I hope that the remainder of the book is stunning because I have very high hopes and expectations for the ending.
Dylan: I'm sorry my naming debate gave you a headache, and I am quite aware that many names can be used for both males and females. In fact, that's why Clym was the character to become a woman, because after Thomasin became a man, another character had to become a woman in order to leave the ratio of males to females unchanged. The choices were Venn, Wildeve, and Clym. Both Diggory and Damon are male names, while Clym is an either/or name, so Clym became female. I am also well aware of the pronouns Hardy used, but I think he wanted us to use our imaginations with this book, and from this, beginning with Thomasin's being a male name, all my conclusions, which I have stated earlier, follow nicely.
ReplyDelete~ Gregory Naigles ~
P.S. Is 'Dylan' actually an either/or name?
So I'm just going to be honest and say that I tried to procrastinate on reading this book for as long as possible. Reading what Mr. MacArthur wrote about how slow the book starts, did not leave me too excited. But I have started it and I am in the middle of Book Two. I have not read anyone's posts yet because I do not want to spoil anything for myself. I did feel like I should post however, to comment on Book 1.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, Mr. MacArthur was telling the truth when he said it started off extremely slow. I usually am able to read in the gym while I work out on a machine, but when I started this book at the gym, there was no way I could get into it. Eventually I had to just stop and wait till I got home to read. Hardy’s aggressive amount of details, especially at the beginning, was just too much for me to handle. In order for me to be drawn in I feel as if it has to be more straightforward at first, or else I am just confused by the unnecessary details. But then to my surprise the pace of the book seemed to speed up quite a bit. The characters began to develop more, along with the plot. Then the details became good, supporting details for these characters and plot. There was a use for the details and I was able to connect them to the story. I think I was really able to engross myself once the dialogue began around page 60. Also I was intrigued when the love triangle began between Eustacia, Thomasin, and Damon. Now that I am able to follow the book better I am excited to get through the rest.
Here is a quote that caught my attention. Hardy's ability to have such vivid and creative details amazes me:
"She ascended to her old position at the top, where the red coals of the perishing fire greeted her like living eyes in the corpse of day." (pg. 50)
As I come across more, I’ll be sure to post them.
I loved this book. That is all I can really say. I loved the ending. Although Hardy used so much foreshadowing, I was still very surprised and thrown-for-a-loop by the ending. Even though Eustacia's and Wildeve's deaths were such astronomical events, Hardy seemed to only briefly touch on them and mention them very vaguely; had I not read so carefully I very easily could have skimmed right over it. I would have expected him to add much more detail like he did with most other "less important" events in the storyline.
ReplyDeleteIn my copy of the book, it said that we as readers may choose whether or not Venn and Thomasin marry, and I personally would choose to have them marry. It seems that this book not only deal with the theme of fate, it also deals with the idea of "What is real love?" It seems that Eustacia's marraige with Clym was not real love, since she was in love with him for his worldliness. Wildeve and Thomasin's marraige also rightfully ended, since Thomasin was always unsure of Wildeve's trustworthiness and loyalty to her. True love should not question itself. To have Venn and Thomasin marry would probably be the closest form of genuine love found in the book, since Venn already loved Thomasin for who she was, and Thomasin got to choose whether or not to marry him (rather than have Mrs. Yeobright or Clym say whether or not he was worthy of being her husband).
(I know that this whole concept was brought up quite a long time ago, but here is how I feel about Clym not dying) I think that Hardy chose not to have Clym die because he would have to live with the "guilt" of "killing Eustacia" just like the guilt of "killing his mother". I think it was just to bring back up the points of fate and karma. I find it very funny and odd that Christian says he is the must unlucky person of the world, yet Clym suffers some tragic losses and finds himself with worsening eyesight and in other such unlucky events.
As for my opinion of Eustacia- some people enjoyed her character and others absolutely despised her and all she stood for- I think she had a split personality character. She, like Josie Hogan of "Moon for the Misbegotten", was strong and independent, unlike other females on their areas and times. Eustacia had strong emotions and opinions of people and tried to think rationally and logically, but her emotions often got in the way. Both Josie and Eustacia searched for love, but Eustacia tried to get into relationships for material gain rather than for pure, genuine love; this was her ultimate flaw. So I guess I would say that I enjoyed her character even though her goals and tactics were less than desirable (at least, to me).
Please do not read until you've finish the book.
ReplyDelete*MAJOR SPOILER ALERT*
I was thoroughly impressed with this book.
The characters were well thought out and the setting was beautiful. I loved how well the book developed plot. It was using different characters to show the cause, then switching to the effect in the next chapter. It left the imagination to conjure what was going to happen before it did. I cannot say the book was predictable, as there would always be some random character messing up a job, or another deciding to toss a wrench into the mixture to see the out come.
Diggory Venn was quite an admirable character. At first I believed he was going to be an evil character. I thought that his red tone would be a foreshadowing of malicious behavior. I was completely wrong of course. This man was completely selfless. He accepted the fact that Thomasin wasn't going to marry him. So he set out to protect her and make her happy in any way possible. I got the feeling that he was constantly shifting fate in his favor. He easily could have been a devil for that, if not for his behavior.
Clym made me shudder. It may have been unrealistic for him to randomly switch careers. Going from a diamond mine to a furze-cutter, and then to a teacher. It was admirable but I do not believe he would ever have gotten the idea due to his mother.
I thought it was interesting how both Eustacia and Wildeve died in that river. It really sounded like forbidden love taking its toll as it had with romeo and juliet. Is the lesson here: dont randomly run off and elope, or you will suffer a painful death?
The image of both of them lying together dead was somewhat disturbing. It was really poetic. Together even in the afterlife.
Eustacia reminded me of the average teenager. Depressed, lazy, seeking love, careless. (no offense to anyone who isn't that) It occurred to me that her inactivity hurt her as well as her activity. I do think it is crazy how Susan Nunsuch thought she was a witch. That brings me back to AP English last year.
This was my favorite book for sure. I appreciated the use of the setting as a character. This was only said on my back cover and the beginning of the book, yet it pertained to other passages, increasing towards the end. I get the feeling that this fact will be overlooked. the only thing I didn't like was the language. I wonder if they really said "Granfer" back then. I liked how even the minor characters had there own impact on the story. Christian was completely unreliable, superstitious, and easy to manipulate. Speaking of manipulative, Wildeve was my least favorite character. That man sought to control both his wife, Eustacia, and everyone on the Heath. He vilely used Christian to get the money, and thankfully lost them to Diggory Venn.
I keep wondering what would have happened if any one of the characters were missing. if Clym never would have appeared, then most likely the wedding wouldn't have taken place and Thomasin would have been horrifically depressed
All in all I like the book. I see it that people will either love the book, or not care for it.
I've read up to page 250 (I'm writing a post for each 50 pages) and strangely, I'm beginning to dislike Eustacia less. She's becoming more of a neutral character in my mind. This may be because another character has taken her place as strongly disliked by me, and only one character can be in this place at one time. This character is Mrs. Yeobright. Mrs. Yeobright is the most selfish, evil, and uncaring person in any of these summer reading books, surpassing even Aaron. She is almost as bad a parent to Clym as Nico's parents are to her. She seems to think that she should have complete control over what her children (and nephew) do, and she always gets angry and hysterical when she doesn't have this control. How dare she oppose both Thomasin's marriage to Wildeve AND Clym's marriage to Eustacia! She does not realize that Clym and Thomasin are old enough to make their own decisions. She needs to let them make their own decisions, and then support whatever decision they do make. Her getting angry at Eustacia was even worse. Eustacia had done nothing wrong to her, how dare she just blow up on Eustacia! In fact, when Clym was leaving, I think that just after she calls Clym wrong-headed (page 209), Clym should have just slapped her, and then left the house. That would have taught her a lesson!
ReplyDeleteOkay. My rant is over. I won't be completely satisfied until something bad happens to Mrs. Yeobright, but I feel a little better now.
I still like the book. None of the three books are outstanding, however at this rate, The Return of the Native will be better than A Moon for the Misbegotten, and quite possibly better than Goldengrove.
Okay, so being a huge procrastinator, when I looked at all three summer reading books I said to myself,"oh hey that really long book that even the teacher warned us would be tough to get through, yeah I'll save that one for the last week of summer!" Not my brightest moment. Anyhow, I've completed book one and I can tell its going to be a tough journey. I'm expecting things to pick up, so far the increase in dialouge has kept me intrested.
ReplyDeleteI do love the character's names. Each one is perfect for the story and I feel like they are names that I'll remember for a long time. I also enjoy the moments of suspense scattered in the long paragraphs of details. When Diggory Venn has Eustia in a wagon and won't give away the story to the man he meets on the road I had just met my goal of pages for a quick break but decided instead to keep reading. It seems that although most of the book I'm pushing myself through I keep reaching moments that recharge my attention span. Book two is for tomorrow, so I'll be back to post!
Josh- I agree that the deaths of both Eustacia and Wildeve were in a way sad and bittersweet. Still, one must imagine that in a way, it was fate that had them die together. Think about it- they really should have been together from the beginning of the book, and since they distanced themselves from each other while alive, it would ultimately be appropriate to have them die together and share each other in death. I also agree that Susan Nunsuch's character was very surprising. I agree that Venn was a very selfless character, but would you not agree that he seemed to only appear at the most coincidential or convenient times? As for your comment about "what would happen if one character was taken out", that goes back to the idea of fate-- every action has a consequence or reaction (good or bad), and without every one of the characters and their choices being as they were, the plot and outcome would have been completely different. I think that is what Hardy is also trying to convey in the story.
ReplyDeleteGregory- I believe Hardy is trying to create the character of Mrs. Yeobright to be a stereotypical control-freak parent which he felt resembled the people of his day. I absolutely agree that her controlling ways are incredibly unsuccessful and wrong, but one must stop to consider the fact that he made her character that way for a reason. As for your "idealistic solution" of slapping her, I disagree. The last thing you should do is hurt somebody you love, especially a parent or child.
I have to agree with Mr. MacArthur completely in saying that the book starts off very slowly. It took me almost as long to read the first part describing the heath as the rest of the book did altogether. I especially enjoyed chapter five, when Clym is attempting to solve the mystery of his mother's death. This mystery inside the book kept me intrigued throughout the course of his attempt. The book seemed to go by faster as I went. Another reason for this seemed to be the multiple dramas unfolding. Now, in general, I am no fan of the general soap opera. These did, however, keep me into the book. This was not as easy to read as the other two books, but I did get by.
ReplyDelete-David
Dylan: I think you misunderstood my 'slapping' comment. I am not advocating violence, and my comment was meant to a) convey how much I disliked Mrs. Yeobright and b) provide a possible different way the story could go. Imagine if Clym actually did slap Mrs. Yeobright. How would the story be different?
ReplyDelete(There's no right or wrong answer here; this is an open-ended question)
~ Gregory Naigles ~
Gregory- I think I understand why you want to "slap" her, since I was against her as a character at that point also. However, once you see the rest of the plot unfold, you will most likely not have the same feeling. I think this is one of Hardy's many writing fortes-- twisting your perception of a character and making you have conflicting emotions/reactions towards them. Truthfully, in my opinion, if Clym were to have slapped Mrs. Yeobright it would really have no affect on the storyline or the outcome (you will understand what I mean by that when you delve further into the book). It would just be one more event that caused Mrs. Yeobright to feel shunned by her family.
ReplyDeleteUp to page 300 now, and not much else to report, so I'll keep this comment short.
ReplyDeleteMrs. Yeobright has just been bitten by an adder, and the reaction to adders in this book is in stark contrast to reactions to adders in other books I have read. In those other books, adders were terrifying monsters, while here they are just nuisances that can easily be defeated. I found this differece of reaction fascinating. I also don't have too much sympathy for Mrs. Yeobright, on account of how bad a character she is.
Dylan: Mrs. Yeobright feels shunned by her family? How about the other way around? I'm sure Clym, and to a lesser extent, Thomasin, feel very shunned by Mrs. Yeobright, especially after she opposed both of their marriages and has not accepted them yet. I think this is the more important issue, Mrs. Yeobright shunning people (and carrying irrational hatreds for people such as Eustacia). She needs to accept and embrace the situation that both Clym and Thomasin are in before she has any right to complain about them shunning her.
~ Gregory Naigles ~
Gregory- I think the reason the adder did not come across as terrifying is because the people who were dealing with them were native to the area and knew of them being there. This is obvious because they knew of a way to cure an adder bite (even though it was unsuccessful). In addition, they knew how to catch the snake without getting bitten themselves.
ReplyDeleteAs for the Mrs. Yeobright debate: Yes, Mrs. Yeobright feels shunned by her family. It is stated repetatively in the story. She feels as if she is losing touch with her son and niece because they do not call or stop by. (I don't quite know of the feeling of losing contact with a close family member, and I guess you don't either; but I'm pretty sure it is a devastating feeling.) Clym and Thomasin are most definitely not treated right by Mrs. Yeobright, but I don't think that they are "shunned" by her. She is just very opinionated and strong-willed, and they know she is. Her dislike of Eustacia is due to a long-time family feud (like that of the Montagues and Capulets in "Romeo and Juliet"), so it is not technically an "irrational hatred".
Dylan: I found your comment about Mrs. Yeobright's family not stopping by interesting. Would you stop by someone who poured nonstop insults on you and your fiance (and later spouse)? Or someone who disagreed with every major decision you made in the past year, was vocal with their disagreement, and showed no signs of coming to terms with your decision? Or someone who hadn't expected you, and didn't want you, to even be there? I didn't think so. Mrs. Yeobright's losing contact with her family is entirely her own fault.
ReplyDeleteAbout the feud: Family feuds such as the Capulets and Montagues are certainly irrational hatreds. You think there was a rational reason why the Capulets and Montagues hated each other? So of course, as we have just proven, Mrs. Yeobright's dislike of Eustacia was an irrational hatred.
And by the way, where did you get that there was a feud between the Vyes and the Yeobrights? I must have missed that.
~ Gregory Naigles ~
P.S. 'repetitively'. It was misspelled.
Gregory: You bring up a good point- would I? And in fact, if it was my mother or aunt who I knew acted like that all the time, I would visit them. This is because they are family, and I wouldn't take what they said too harshly. The greatest thing about family is that you know each relative's personality and character (this includes what they do and say, and their reasoning behind their actions). I believe Clym knew that his mother was stubborn and opinionated, and so he wouldn't hold it against her; it's just the way she was and he knew it. As I state in my thesis paper, the naturally-created love of family member is stronger than the hatred created by one mishap between them. And just a side note: If I'm not mistaken, the feud is mentioned towards the start of the book. I don't remember the exact page. (And sorry for the misspelled word; I was typing quickly and didn't go back to look it over.)
ReplyDeleteAnd as far as the feud: In "Romeo and Juliet", we know that there was some conflict between the two families many generations before the start of the storyline. The exact details are never disclosed, but we know enough to understand that there was some confrontation and the current heirs to the names still are carrying it on. One must assume that since they had carried on their hatred for one another for so long, the event must have been pretty catastrophic. And without that underlying knowledge, the whole concept of Romeo and Juliet eloping would probably not have the same negative reaction or dire consequences as it did. Similarly, we are never told exactly what caused the feud between the Vyes and Yeobrights; we simply know that there is one. In these situations, we should not question if their reasons for feuding are or are not rational; simply accept it and go with it.
ReplyDeleteSo I've been doing my best to get through Return of the Native, but for reasons unknown I just cannot get through it as quickly as I did the other books! I'm about 2/3rds though Book 3, and I have a few questions that I would like to ask before I continue reading. In an effort not to lose the motivation I have for reading the book, I haven't read any of the posts on this blog (don't want to spoil the ending!). My questions are:
ReplyDelete1. What was the point in Eustacia giving away Thomasin? I felt that the action made her look sort of bratty, and her intent was to rub the marriage in Damon's face. If anyone disagrees or has another reason, I would really appreciate hearing it because I don't want to think poorly of Eustacia's character.
2. During this time period, marriage was the only acceptable option for women, as made known by Thomasin's marriage to Damon. At first, it seems as though Eustacia is willing to break this "rule" if they are unable to offer her what she desires- to escape. But, she knows Clym's plan is to stay in town and become a schoolmaster when she agrees to marry him. My question is why does she agree to marry him when she is fully aware of his plan?
Thank you!
Marissa
As I continue reading, my opinion of Eustacia is getting lower and lower. I do not find her to be much more than a melodramatic brat. I realize how harsh this may sound because there are two sides to every story and Eustacia does have to live everyday knowing she's out of options and stuck in the heath. Perhaps her catty behavior is her last whim to try and get out of the situation shes trapped in, however I still do not approve of her rude and dramatic actions. She falls in love far to easily and reminds me of Blanche from "A Streetcar Named Desire." Obviously Blanche is a much more modern and extreme version of Eustacia, but every so often I see a glimmer of Blanche in Eustacia.
ReplyDeleteUp to page 350! Almost done!
ReplyDeleteIn the beginning of the part I read today, Mrs. Yeobright dies, and the characters spend many chapters after this trying to determine whose fault it was that she died. Why did they think it was anyone's fault? It was chance that killed Mrs. Yeobright, the diabolical coincidence of a hot day and a hungry snake. The characters are really beginning to annoy me with their constant attempts to blame someone.
Also, why is Clym defending her mother in the way she is? Clym is not to blame at all (neither is Eustacia, by the way), and yet she defends the person who treated her like mud for the past year! She suddenly likes her after death? (Or maybe Clym is one of those strange people who can still like someone even after they treat them like dirt for a long period of time.) Clym's defense of her mother is like a Native American defending Andrew Jackson (the President who ordered thousands of Native Americans to go to Oklahoma on the Trail of Tears).
Clym also goes overboard in blaming Eustacia. In a way, I feel bad for Eustacia, and this is the only part of the book so far that I have had negative feelings toward Clym. However, I have also had intensifying bad feelings toward Wildeve, who is seriously committing adultery (or plans to). He needs to get away from Eustacia and back to Thomasin, especially now that he's a father.
And that baby name was a great touch by Hardy. I would not have thought of that.
Dylan: About the feud, there is no rational reason to continue a bloody feud for years. None whatsoever. And I disagree that the event that began the Montague/Capulet feud must have been catastrophic. It might just have been an argument, it might not even have been bloody! Feuds can start small and escalate. Also, if there indeed was a feud between the Vyes and the Yeobrights, then why didn't Captain Vye complain about Eustacia's marrying Clym in the same way that Mrs. Yeobright did? Maybe because he was a more thoughtful person, and more caring about his daughter. That's just my opinion, though.
On the home stretch!
~ Gregory Naigles ~
Marissa- I really don't have a specific response for your first question. No matter what a character says their intentions behind doing something are, they really may have done what they did for other reasons. Your suggestion that Eustacia did it to rub it in Damon's face is very possible, but I think that she was just mad at Wildeve for going off to another woman. She may have thought "If he thinks he is too good for me, let him marry someone else, find out I was really 'the one', and then let him find his way back to me." Again, it's possible but you can never really tell. The only answer I can possibly conceive for your second question is that Eustacia knows her capabilities to get what she wants, and if I remember correctly, it is revealed later that she was hoping to convince him to return to Paris. There are more interesting surprises that I shouldn't reveal (big spoilers) which will elaborate on this further. =)
ReplyDeleteGregory- Captain Vye does not appear much in the story, but at the end, he has some dialogue. In it, he says that he disapproved of the marriage, but would go along with it SINCE THEY WERE HAPPY TOGETHER (the exact opposite from the way Mrs. Yeobright acted). He knew that he could not object to them getting married if they believed they were destined to be with each other. Remember, it is not just about the parents-- the people who are in love have a say, too!
Dylan: Of course the people in love have a say, and in my opinion, they have the only say! I'm glad Captain Vye shows more tolerance of different opinions than Mrs. Yeobright did.
ReplyDeleteAlso, do you do anything else besides look at this blog? You seem to be omnipresent here, and you always post almost instantaneously after I do. Do you have some kind of reminder on your computer that tells you whenever anyone posts, so you can respond to them? Just curious.
~ Gregory Naigles ~
Yes, Gregory, I do have a life outside of the computer. I have not spent my entire summer staring blankly at this blog, refreshing it twice a minute. I check the blog a few times a day to see if anybody has posted, and what they have to say. It just so happens that when I checked the blog for the past few days, I see that you have posted, so I comment back. Since I coincidentially check at the same time that you post, I write back "instantaneously". Is that such a bad thing?
ReplyDeleteDylan: No, of course it isn't a bad thing. I was just remarking about the coincidence of our posting (or checking) at similar times. I always read from 10:30 to 12, give or take 15 minutes or so. Then I post between 12:30 and 1. Is your schedule similar?
ReplyDeleteAlso, you seem to post frequently in every thread, not just this one. I occasionally check the other threads, although I have already done my posting in them, and there are always recent posts by you there. So far, I haven't seen anyone else post more. I guess you really want to make sure you get 50 out of 50?
I wonder what percentage of the twenty most recent posts on this thread are written by you or me. It must seem to everyone else like we've invaded this thread. But that isn't a bad thing either.
~ Gregory Naigles ~
Gregory- I don't have a particular "check the blog" schedule. It's just whenever I happen to check it. And as far as the grade, I truly don't care if I get a 50/50 or not; as long as I know that I put in my two cents and get my opinion voiced (not necessarily heard). I think you ought to know that sometimes I play the devil's advocate and just argue the other side of a conversation simply to suggest other possible scenarios or reasons (and don't think I only do that with you; that goes for other people, too-- virtually everybody).
ReplyDeleteDylan: I'm glad you have the ability to argue any side of a conversation. I don't, and that's probably a main reason why I don't usually interject in other people's conversations, or respond to someone, because I'm usually initially not sure what side I'm on, and it takes me time to decide, and I only want to argue with someone else if I'm sure my opinion is different (that was probably a run-on sentence).
ReplyDeleteBut I've gone far enough off topic. I'll post again tomorrow after I've finished the book. I've heard that the ending is gripping, and I'm looking forward to it.
~ Gregory Naigles ~
Actually, in the above post, I meant 'respond to someone without them responding to me first'. I realize that confusion could occur without this, because I have obviously responded to people before, but only those who have responded to me first.
ReplyDelete~ Gregory Naigles ~
Just read your comment Josh, and I was thinking the exact same thing. Throughout the book, I was wondering "What is Clym wasn't involved?" Would Eustacia have stayed with Damon instead of leaving him? All the relationships and breakups seemed to work perfectly, and it amazed me how all the characters separate lives seemed to work together so well.
ReplyDelete-David
I am about half way through Return of The Native, and although it's getting better it is easily one of the hardest books I've ever read. The beginning was just awful, it took me a very long time to get through the first few chapters. Like Greg one of my early confusions was that Thomasin was a woman. I just assumed the name was an old version of Thomas. I also was wondering like David and probably others, what would have happen if Clym wasnt a factor in the story. It seems to me that it would have simplified the story to the point that it wouldnt beworth reading. I also don't like Eustacia much, she just annoys me in a way i can't really explain. Diggory Venn is my favorite character so far, he just seems like a genunine person, where as Eustacia seems kind of shallow and childish. Now that I've gotten through the worst of this book I am looking forward to finishing it.
ReplyDeleteI am about three quarters through this book and I feel it is a good point to do a midway post. I'm really enjoying this book so far. I've read a few other older books for both pleasure and school, so I'm a little bit accustomed to the slow pace that many pre-1900 books tend to have. One thing I really like about this book is the language used. My favorite phrase so far is the use of "for ever and anon" instead of ever so often. In my opinion it has the best quotations of any of the three books. This is not just because he grew up in a different time but just from reading his work I know he was schooled in rhetoric. I also like how, towards the beginning of the story, all the characters manipulated each other for personal gain. It reminds me of the old European nobility not just using soldiers but deception and strategic marriages to further themselves. My favorite character in this book is, without a doubt, Eustacia. I love that she was introduces as a witch, or as I thought of her as, a druid of pre-Cristian Britain. I thought it was clever to describe a "witch" with references to pagen gods. I am just starting to see how Diggory Venn is going to fulfill the symbolism of his outfit and become a devil or cause of misfortune.
ReplyDeleteJust a few asides, does anyone know if the reddleman trade uses mercury or is something else making Diggory mad.
Also Greggory, did you just call Napoleon an idiot? He is one of the greatest commanders the world has ever seen. He is up there with Sun Tzu, Alexander the Great, and Hannibal. His only major fault was his cockiness in thinking he could defeat the Russians in the winter.
Finished the book! Finally!
ReplyDeleteNot really much to comment upon about the ending, besides that it was a strong ending and, although it didn't explain why Eustacia fell in the river, I still liked it.
Dylan: Sorry for disobeying my schedule on my last day of summer reading. I know you were expecting me to post sooner.
Alex: Do you really want to get in a discussion with me about Napoleon? Napoleon was a tyrant, a dictator, and a mass murderer. I can't compare him with any of the other people you've mentioned, seeing as I don't know what any of them did, but they were probably better than him. Napoleon was basically Hitler minus the concentration camps. Think about it.
~ Gregory Naigles ~
P.S. Alex, my name is spelled 'Gregory'. Don't feel too bad though, you aren't the first person to make that mistake.
P.P.S. Alex, do you also think that Mao was a great commander? Or Hideki Tojo?
Just started last night, so I think I beat all of you for procrastination ;)
ReplyDeleteBook First
I was braced for a very boring start to this book, but I actually didn’t mind this section. I love how Thomas Hardy personified Egdon Heath, portraying it as a character. The way the book begins gave me the feeling that the heath had been there forever, only later imposed upon by man – “humanity appears upon the scene, hand in hand with trouble.” It symbolizes the unchangeable quality of nature that has endured for centuries and will continue on, unchanged, “a face on which time makes but little impression.” The road indicates the subtle push of humanity against nature, yet the power of the heath remains standing.
I’m still not sure why, but one of the passages that really stood out to me was on page 23. It was about the effect the Rainbarrow bonfire had upon the people gathered around it. “The brilliant lights and sooty shades which struggled upon the skin and clothes of the persons standing round caused their lineaments and general contours to be drawn with Dureresque vigour and dash.” It is intriguing how Hardy describes the faces as so changed and darkened by the light. The paragraph ends with “Those whom Nature had depicted as merely quaint became grotesque, the grotesque became preternatural; for all was in extremity.” Maybe the symbolism will make more sense as the story develops, but I have a thought: the faces (symbolizing civilization or the community) appear placid in daylight but are transformed by the fire, each and every trait intensified, so a bad quality could become pure evil in the light of the pressures of society. The light show the true qualities of the society, the true qualities that now lie hidden but will eventually show up under certain pressures in life.
A bit of foreshadowing: All the people around the fire pair up almost at random, leaving one poor man (Christian)left out – symbolic of a complex drama about to unfold? I think yes.
Alright, so I have finally finished Return of the Native and therefore finally finished all of my summer reading books. Yay!
ReplyDeleteOut of the three books I have to say that this was my least favorite out of the three, but it wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. People who I had talked to said that Return of the Native was so boring and so I thought that this book was going to be completely horrible. Reading the first four pages and not understanding what was being said didn't help my initial outlook on the book either (though since I didn't understand any of it it made me determined to read the rest of the book with some understanding, it made me determined to finish the book. It also made me go get a dictionary so I could look up the words..first time I've ever done that with a book). Once the book got going though, I was pleasantly surprised that the book wasn't that bad. It did start out really slow, but once I got past book one I was able to enjoy the story.
To be specific, I really liked how the book ended. I thought that it was a very appropriate ending, all of the characters basically ended up with the people who they truly cared about from the beginning: Venn ends up with Thomasin, who he has cared about since before the novel began; and in a way Eustacia and Wildeve end up together. Through the whole book I found myself hoping the Venn would eventually end up with Thomasin and so this ending made me very happy. I also liked how all of the characters kind of meet each other in the beginning of the book and end up having their lives intertwined throughout the rest of the story. At first I didn't understand why Hardy was introducing characters, like the old man, and then going and following the life of another character (reddleman), but once I found out that the old man was really Eustacia's grandfather, I found the beginning very interesting and enjoyed it. I liked the way the book was written, the way the language was spoken. It was different than anything I've ever read, but it reminded me of Shakespearean English, so I liked it. I'm probably one of the only people who enjoy reading the Shakespearean English, but it made the dialogue fun for me to read. There were times when I would go to bed thinking in the same way the book was written.
I noticed something while reading and I just want to check to make sure that I'm correct: The title "The Return of the Native" refers to Clym's return back to the heath. He is a native of the area and the story is about his coming home and what happens to everyone because of it.
Dylan/Gregory: I love your conversations on the blogs. They always raise more questions about the books in my head and also make me laugh. :)
David/Josh: That's an interesting thought...what if Clym had never come home? How would the story have gone? I hadn't thought of that until reading some of these posts. For some reason I have this feeling that Eustacia and Wildeve wouldn't have stayed together, but it does raise the question of what would Eustacia do with her life. I will have to think about that.
-Jen Rankin
Jen- Yes, Clym is the returning native. And on that note, I would like to address the question that David and Josh raised: What if Clym had never come home? The whole book is centered on Clym's return and the effect is has on him and the people around him. I believe Hardy was trying to convey the idea that every action or decision has a chain of consequences (good or bad), as demonstrated through the series of events that Clym, Eustacia, Venn, Thomasin, Wildeve, and Mrs. Yeobright are subjected to because of Clym's arrival. If he had not returned, I'm almost positive there would not have been a book, or at least it would not have any resemblance to the book we read-- the native would not have returned and the chain of events that the characters experienced would not have been set off. Would that make the book be titled "What Happens When the Native Doesn't Return"? I wonder if we should imagine a sequel that explores this concept...
ReplyDeletei just finished reading "Return of the Native", and overall i thought this book was very enjoyable. in the beginning of reading this book, it felt like it would take me years just to turn the page, because like we were all told, the book is VERRRYYY slow. when i finially finished book first, it was a bitter sweet moment, because i had gotten a fraction of the book out of the way, but i still had most of the book left to read. however, when i had started book second, the story started to come into play, and it felt like a could sweep through the rest of the book. by this time, i had begun to really enjoy the complexity of the plot, and each character.
ReplyDeletereading the book, i didnt't think Estacia would end up with Wildeve(in a way they ended up together in death), i thought that it would be better for her to be with Clym in the end, because Wildeve seemed to play with the emotions of both Tomasin and Estacia, and manipulate them, although, i dont believe Estacia really deserved better due to the fact that all she cared about was getting out of the heath, and have a husband with money to support her desires. this is evident when mrs. Yeobright dies due to heat exhaustion, and being bitten by a snake, and Estacia doesnt care enough to stay, but would rather leave and talk to Wildeve when she realizes he had just inherited money, and has the means to support her in Paris. the thing i liked most about this book is that the ending was unpridictable. half way through the book, i wouldn't have been able to say that Venn and Tomasin would end up together, or that Estacia would go back to Wildeve, because having read the two other summer reading books before this one, where the ending were fairly predictable, and for the most part bitter, i had expected this one to be similar. i also realized that there is possibility things would have never accured this way in edgon, had clym, "the native", not returned.
something i absolutely loved about this book was the endnotes. they helped me out so much when i was reading, and without them i would have been dumbfounded.
Overall i do have to say this was my favorite summer reading book because it really dragged me into the life and dramas of Edgon Heath, and throughout the entire book, i could visualize the plot unfolding, i also had a lot of respect for how much thought went into each character.
Dylan: This is my opinion of what would happen in a book called 'What Happens When The Native Doesn't Return':
ReplyDeleteThomasin and Wildeve would be married like they were in the actual book, however Eustacia would not have had anyone to marry. Therefore, because she was open, I think Wildeve would have tried harder to be with her, because he would only be breaking one marriage instead of two. Without someone like Clym to hold things together, it is possible that Wildeve would have been successful in attracting Eustacia to him, and then leaving the heath with her, as was his plan at the end of the actual book. Thomasin would not have been strong enough alone to stop this plan.
If this had happened, Mrs. Yeobright would still be alive, and she would not know Eustacia. She might have heard about the plan from Venn, who would I'm sure be spying on Wildeve, and she might have tried to stop it. But because she wasn't in favor of Thomasin's marriage to Wildeve, she might just let it go in the hopes that Wildeve would succeed and run away and Thomasin would get, in her mind, a more suitable spouse.
So in this book, the catastrophe would occur to the only character who did not die or almost die in the actual book: Thomasin. Thomasin would lose Wildeve either way. Wildeve was too engrossed with Eustacia even when the marriage began. Thomasin was doomed.
~ Gregory Naigles ~
First of all, I'd like to say that I was so happy when the book started to get readable, but even more relieved when I finished reading the book. I liked the plot and the drama, and (this might sound totally evil but..) I loved the unexpected twist in the end when Wildeve and Eustacia drowned. I guess that's what you get for trying to find an easy way out of things so you can get what you want Eustacia. And for Wildeve, if you loved Eustacia so much you shouldn't have married Thomasin and made her miserable by being unfaithful to her!
ReplyDeleteAnyways, the never ending long descriptions of everything that Hardy wrote throughout the book were a pain to get through, and I felt myself just fishing for some more action. I talked to one of my old teachers and told her about my problem with Hardy's writing and she said to read his descriptions as if it was poetry and sometimes even separate it from the storyline and read it by itself and really see the picture Hardy was trying to create. I guess that helped but not much. So I was glad I was able to get through all of them even though I thought a lot of it was unnecessary.
Oh and Gregory, your version of 'What Happens When the Native Does Not Return' made me laugh. Quite creative. You're right though.. I feel like that's basically what would happen.
Oh! I almost forgot to say something I found that I thought was pretty cool. --
ReplyDeleteWell one day while I was reading, I noticed how the names used in this book were names I've never really heard of before so I thought that maybe there was some meaning behind it.. and there is! A lot of the names used applies to the characters and are not random haha. The name Diggory means 'astray' and the character Diggory Venn had a bright future but turned into a reddleman instead who travels from place to place and not exactly loved by the public. Eustacia's name means 'good harvest or fruitful' and this applies to her as well because she attracted people with her beauty and men saw her as a successful win for them. Clement means 'gentle and merciful' and for most of the book I thought he was. He loved Eustacia and tried to make her happy and even when they got in fights and he found out that Eustacia was a main reason for his mother's death, he still forgave her.
I also looked up the definitions for Thomasin and Damon's names but I'm not really sure how their definitions relate to their characters like Diggory, Eustacia, and Clement. Thomasin's name means 'twin' and Damon's name means 'tame or subdues'. Anyone know how those would apply? I guess Damon quote on quote "tamed" Thomasin and basically made her do things he wanted her to do but never really loved or did anything for her. If anything I thought Damon was the one who needed to be tamed.
I also thought there were a number of characters that Hardy included in the book were not really needed. I don't really know what the purpose of characters like Humphrey, Sam, and Christian were. The plot would have been perfectly fine without them in my opinion.
Gregory- I really believe that Clym's return to Egdon impacted Wildeve's decision to marry Thomasin. Since Eustacia wouldn't have anybody else "suitable" for marrying her, she would have probably tried to get Wildeve back. Either that or as I said previously: she would wait for Wildeve to realize that she was really "the one" and then he would come back to her. Then Thomasin may have ended up with Venn. And yes, Mrs. Yeobright would still be alive and clueless to this whole saga. Venn would probably be the most unchanged character of the book (besides Christian and his posse). And as far as Wildeve and Eustacia escaping to Paris: I agree that Wildeve was going to help her get to Paris, but from what I understand, he planned on returning home to Thomasin.
ReplyDeleteSharon- I agree that the plot would not be drastically altered by the removal of those minor characters, but I think that Fairway and the neighbors provided a little insight to how the rest of the town viewed Eustacia, Clym, Thomasin, Venn, and Wildeve. Also, I believe that Christian's character provided some comic relief, which sort of lightened the mood in some areas where the plot started to drag a bit.
ReplyDeleteAs for the character names (and I am not using a baby name reference site or using those definitions):
Damon Wildeve- Damon reminds me of and sounds like "demon"; and when you break apart his last name, you get "wild" (self explanatory) and "eve" (the original sinner of the Bible). So all in all, his whole name sounds negative and sinful. It could be to express that his character was bad or had bad intentions, as shown by his marriage to Thomasin simply to make Eustacia jealous.
Thomasin- Kelsey already tackled her name briefly on her August 21st post, so I won't take credit for what she said; I'll simply say that I agree with her reasoning and that to me, it makes sense.
I have finally gotten through half of The Return of the Native (I am aware that I'm cutting it pretty close). That was probably the most painstakingly slow 243 pages of my life, but not the worst (Catcher in the Rye!). While the plot is very slow and not too interesting, I really like the characters in this book. It sort of reminds me of Uncle Tom's Cabin in that the characters are exaggerated and consantly fit into a description; Mrs. Yeobright attempts to be controlling, Christian is naieve and foolhardy, Thomasin is unconditionally trusting, Wildeve is proud and also controlling, the reddleman is noble, and Eustacia is obnoxious. That brings me to my first "mini-discussion"; my favorite and least favorite characters.
ReplyDeleteThe reddleman is by far my favorite character. He goes about his job without complaint, even though it is lonely and he's covered in red, yet would be willing to entirely change his way of life for the one he loves. He constantly acts in a way to better the lives of the people around him, instead of trying to help himself. Trying to help Thomasin marry Wildeve for her own happiness instead of trying to marry her himself was awe-inspiring to everyone who heard of it. He also played a role in my favorite scene; the dice game with Wildeve. He kept his cool and beat Wildeve with his own dice.
The character I do not like at all is Eustacia. She is almost the anti-reddleman, in a way. She constantly complains about the heath and her boredom but all she does is wander around and doesn't work. Here's a novel idea; do some work, make some money, convince your grandfather to go with you to Budmouth (which doesn't sound very appealing to me) and if he doesn't, go anyway! Instead she pouts. She reminds me of, gasp, Holden. No wonder he likes her. It'd be one thing if that was all that was wrong with her; but she's a manipulator. She puts Wildeve on until she gets bored with him and sees he's not really a worthy prize, and just moves on to Clym, who she's just using to get to Paris, or at least Budmouth. I have a feeling she'll somehow play Clym just like she played Wildeve, cause 'a tiger don't change her stripes' (a quote from Sawyer in Lost, I believe).
Another thing I like about the book is the heath. While the description is a little bit confusing to me and I feel like I'm picturing it wrong, it seems like a beautiful place, even with its imperfections. It really does act like a character in the story. On page 84 Eustacia says (rather, complains), "How mournfully the wind blows around us now!" A pretty observative statement from someone who's generally too busy being wrapped up in herself to notice anything else. But this statement is interesting in that it's during the scene where Wildeve and Eustacia are going crazy over what to do with themselves. It's like the heath is portraying their feelings of hopelessness.
There's a lot of observations that can be made from this book, even though hardly anything interesting happens (again, I prefer swords or guns to love and tears). I'm most curious to see what Eustacia screws up next, and if my interpretation of the characters stays true.
It's been several weeks since I've finished all my books and just this past week, my mom was asking me about The Return of the Native (she likes to read the summer reading books assigned to us every year). I was trying to explain to her the plot of the book when I realized something. The story is actually really good. When I would talk about a certain aspect of the book, I would think, "Wow, that actually sounds like a book I would pick up on my own and enjoy." It's ironic how psychological reading a book can be. Just by having a book forced on you can lead a person to dislike a book, without giving it much of a chance. I know that if I found this book on my own, I would have enjoyed it a whole lot more while reading it than I did.
ReplyDeleteDylan- I totally agree with you about dissecting the name Damon Wildeve and what Thomas Hardy may have been trying to imply. In the first scene with Wildeve in it, most people could foreshadow who this character was going to be. From the very beginning, readers could understand that Wildeve would present a damaging impact on the other characters throughout the novel.
After finally finishing my summer reading for the year, it's obvious that THe Return of The Native was definately the most difficult work to swallow. The story was more interesting than I expected, but the npart that made this one so difficult to grasp was the extreme, almost excessive use of description that HArdy injected into every paragraph.
ReplyDeleteBut all of the fluff aside, the story actually intrigued me a lot. I really enjoy it when an author uses fate and seemingly random occurences and conections to progress the story, and Hardy uses this technique to its full potential.
This actually reminded me a lot of Goldengrove, and how the entire plot is moved forward by a single, coincidental event...
...Ladies and gentlemen, I think I now have my essay Idea.
The above comment is by Ryan Gannon, by the way. I forgot to sign it.
ReplyDelete-Ryan Gannon
The Return of the Native….. I have so much to say. I, like every other person, had the most difficult time getting into this book. I started reading it in July, then put it down and read Goldengrove. Then I tried again, and stopped and finished A Moon for the Misbegotten. Finally, I had to force myself through it. Just the first section of Book 1 made me think I would never get through this, I mean "A Face on Which Time Makes But Little Impression" what kind of title is that? The extreme description and use of vocabulary that hasn't been in use since the 1800's made the reading slow and painful. I often had those moments where a read a whole page and had no idea what went on or how I go to the bottom of the page. I read Sarah's first comment about when she first read a classical novel in middle school and how it took her a while to get into the novel. I to attempted to read Gulliver's Travels, but unlike Sarah i never finished it and while reading The Return of the Native, I kept thinking if i couldn't read a classic then how am I going to get through this? But once I got past page 50 the struggle went away and I started to enjoy the novel. I believe in fate personally, so i really liked how the story used the idea so frequently and I liked the way Hardy showed it in his writing. It showed how even the littlest things can change an outcome entirely. I liked one of Joannes first comments about how she was curious about what the ending would have been like if Wildeve had married Thomasin instead. I had similar thoughts through out the story, and i feel like the could have been so many different endings and twist to the novel, but Hardy's choice was very pleasing and I enjoyed it. Also, I think it expresses fate and how many things can happen but the one that did happen, happened for a reason. I really liked Hardy's use of irony and foreshadow throughout, it made the book more enjoyable along with the very interesting. The story and characters were just very well thought out and developed, which is what I think makes the story a classic today. It was impressive how much Hardy knew about different cultures and how he incorporated his knowledge into the book. I actually enjoyed reading the 30 pages worth of endnotes, because they made the story more involved and amusing. I didn't know how to picture Diggory Venn during the book, I don't know why and I know this sounds super weird and random but I just had a hard time imagining a completely red person. After a finished reading the book, I read the spark-notes for it, just to make sure i understand the novel and to read their analysis of the story. Surprisingly I think I actually got most of the information from the book that was given from spark-notes. The Return of the Native was not my favorite I will admit, but it was a good novel and even though it took me a while to read and write this I did enjoy it.
ReplyDeleteDylan: I havea few things to comment on about your two most recent posts.
ReplyDelete1. Why do you think that Clym's arriving made Thomasin and Wildeve marry? They were already engaged, and they had even tried to marry but had a slight mishap. And Clym was not a love interest to either of them. I fail to see how Clym's entrance into the story could have possibly had an effect on Thomasin and Wildeve's marriage.
2. Do you really think that Wildeve would have gone back to Thomasin after he had taken Eustacia to Paris? A few rhetorical questions: Who did Wildeve always show strong interest in throughout the book? Eustacia. Who did he go out almost every night to see? Eustacia. Who did he make an elaborate plan with to escape to Paris? Eustacia? And who did Wildeve ultimately die trying to save? That's right, Eustacia. Eustacia was clearly Wildeve's primary love interest. Once Wildeve had his love interest far away from his wife, he would not go back to his wife.
And, to preempt questions asking 'Why did he marry Thomasin?', Wildeve married Thomasin because he had been in a relationship with THomasin for a longer period of time, he also liked Thomasin but not as much as Eustacia, Thomasin knew nothing about his relationship with Eustacia, and as you stated earlier, he wanted to make Eustacia jealous (I actually agree with that). Also, Wildeve was at heart a 'wild' character, one who does not like to obey rules, and in that way he would be a great match for Eustacia.
~ Gregory Naigles ~
Pardon the typo, first line should be 'have a', not 'havea'.
ReplyDelete~ Gregory Naigles ~
Gregory- Where do I begin with this response? I would like to first state that you seem to be contradicting yourself and I am slightly confused with how your explanations match with your questions and rebutals. Now then, I will try to answer you:
ReplyDelete1. Yes, I really do think that Clym affected the marriage in an indirect way. His arrival allowed both Eustacia and Wildeve to marry and get each other jealous. (So rather than have only a jealous Eustacia, she was able to turn around and say "Well, Damon, look- I got myself a better man. I don't need you just like you don't need me." It's sort of like a reverse psychology in a way.) If Clym had not returned to the Heath, Eustacia would not have married Clym. Instead, she would have fought (not physically, but fought nonetheless) to get Wildeve back. So Clym's return impacted it very indirectly but impacted it nonetheless.
2. Wildeve never planned to go all the way to Paris! It is stated IN THE STORY at least twice! Eustacia simply needed somebody to help her to the boat that would take her to Paris (it was a boat, right?)
Just some even more food for thought: If you were married to a woman and had a child with her, would YOU not be obligated to stay with them?
Yes, Wildeve and Thomasin were engaged, but Wildeve clearly did not love Thomasin and would have much rather married Eustacia. He only went back to marry Thomasin because Eustacia told him to. She only told him to because she wanted to be with Clym. If Clym hadn't showed up then Eustacia, as Dylan said, would have fought for Wildeve. So to rubuttle against the number 2 section of Gregory's post...no, Wildeve would have stayed with Eustacia if he had brought her to Paris because that was who he wanted to be with. Even though he was only supposed to bring her as far as the town where she would catch her boat, if he had decided that he was going to accompany her to Paris he would have stayed with her and abandoned Thomasin. The only reason why he was married to Thomasin in the first place was because Eustacia told him to..he would have much rather married Eustacia.
ReplyDeleteDylan: I don't think that Wildeve would have cared if he was abandoning his child and Thomasin. He doesn't care a lot about Thomasin and it seems to me that he loved Eustacia so much that if she had asked him, he would have left his child and gone off with her. He may have left Thomasin money to take care of the baby, but I think if he could have, he would have gone with Eustacia.
-Jen Rankin
The above comment was a rebuttle to the Dylan/Gregory argument that has been going on.
ReplyDelete-Jen Rankin
Book Second
ReplyDeleteI could not believe how quickly Eustacia fell in love with Clym, or rather the idea of Clym that suited her whims at the time. Eustacia wanted out of Egdon, so she dreamed up a man who could get her out, and put this image of a man into Clym Yeobright. Then, I was astonished at “how a little sound produced a great dream!” The little sound was two words from Clym – “Good night!” – muttered to a nameless passerby on the road. But in just one night (and only 5 pages!) Eustacia managed to dream up a great love between them. All emotional things were possible to the speaker of that “good night.” Eustacia’s imagination supplied the rest…” (119). That night, Eustacia’s vivid dreams illustrated her imagined future with Clym: “She was dancing to wondrous music, and her partner was the man in silver armour who had accompanied her through the previous fantastic changes, the visor of his helmet being closed” (120). The phrase about Eustacia’s love having a closed visor indicates that she is mostly in love with the outer shell of Clym, the part she has fabricated, and the face or the soul of the true man behind the visor.
Despite her sudden love affair with a dream, Eustacia is officially my favorite character. Her best line so far: “You mistake; it gives me sincerest pleasure to see her your wife today” (167). Eustacia is proud of her success in manipulating Wildeve into marrying Thomasin in order to improve her own chances with Clym. Eustacia said she was happy for them, but there is a hidden meaning in the way she said “to see her your wife” instead of “to see you two married.” Eustacia is really saying she is happy Wildeve got Thomasin out of her way.
One quick comment… Poor Diggory! (as Thomasin said, but “then aroused herself to other things (161); she didn’t really care about poor Venn). Diggory only wanted to make her happy all along, but he didn’t even get to see Thomasin for all his trouble and heartache. :( He disappeared (leaving the heath unchanged, again). But he can’t give up this easily!! I hope he comes to save innocent Thomasin from Wildeve – he only married her to get back at Eustacia. Come on Diggory!
Dylan: A few things:
ReplyDelete1. Let's all calm down. This is entirely supposition, and no one is right or wrong here.
2. I'm confused by this whole argument by both Jen and Dylan that Clym affected Thomasin and Wildeve's marriage. Both of them are ignoring this fact: Thomasin and Wildeve got married BEFORE Clym and Eustacia were even lovers, never mind married. Eustacia did not think of Clym as a love interest until after Thomasin and Wildeve were married. Thomasin and Wildeve were married at the end of Book Second, and Clym and Eustacia had only met once or twice by then! So in conclusion, Clym had nothing to do with Thomasin and Wildeve's marriage.
3. I agree with Jen that Wildeve would have gladly left Thomasin to go to Paris with Eustacia. Yes, Wildeve did plan to go all the way to Paris, but he kept that to himself so that no one might try to stop him. Dylan, here's the thing: You're too good a person. You can't imagine abandoning your wife and baby. That's a good thing. However, Wildeve was not so moral as you.
~ Gregory Naigles ~
Book Third
ReplyDeleteI see where this love affair is going… and fast. Eustacia and Clym are so in love, yet not really with each other but with visions of perfect partners that they have both put on each other.
*Eustacia: In love with the idea that Clym can get her what she wants – a ticket out of Egdon. On the night of the lunar eclipse, when Clym wants to talk about their future together as husband and wife, Eustacia can only think about Paris and its beauty. She completely overlooks Clym’s desire to never go back and will only promise to marry him with the assumption that his education plan will be short lived.
*Clym: In love with the idea that Eustacia can be what he wants – a perfect wife who will help him start his school in Egdon. When he was talking to Sam about Eustacia, Clym asked him if he thought “she would like to teach children” (183). Sam responded honestly: “Quite a different body from that, I reckon.” But Clym ignored this and continued to form his fantasy of a perfect wife to help him in his plan. When he was talking to his mother about his plan on page 196, Clym said, “By this means, and by the assistance of a wife like her—.” Clearly, Clym does not know the real Eustacia, repulsed by work (as we learned when she refused Diggory’s offer of a job to get out of Egdon).
*Both of them: Terribly mistaken, and will definitely find out who the other really is…Eventually.
Gregory- First let me say that I believe you meant to say "This is entirely suppositional". Next off, I would like to say I really don't know what else I can say to make you understand where Jen and I are coming from. I can only stress the idea that Clym's marriage to Eustacia eliminated the chance of Eustacia trying to get Wildeve back. This in turn allowed Thomasin and Wildeve to stay together without a possibility of Wildeve going back to Eustacia, his greater and truer love. Clym most certainly did have an impact on their marriage; it was simply indirect (as do most chain reactions from a single event).
ReplyDeleteAlright so I have been pretty busy the past couple of days so I did not get a chance to blog, but I did however finish The Return of The Native. So as I continued to read, the pace started to pick up. The more action, drama, and dialogue, the better. I was also able to begin to recognize the plot better and figure out all of the tangled and complicated relationships between all the specific characters. I have mixed feelings about this book. On one hand I found this book boring. The excessive amount of details distracted me, leading me to think about other things than the story or even nod off every once in awhile. On the other hand however, I thought that the plot of the story was great. This so-called love square between Eustacia, Clym, Thomasin, and Wildeve kept me on my toes throughout the entire story. I also loved how distinct every characters personality was. I thought Clym was a great character and in real life would be a great guy. He was the perfect blend between sweet, strong, witty, passionate, and understanding. He was always nice towards Eustacia even when she continued to complain. He was also strong enough to keep his ground however to stay true to himself. No matter how upset Eustacia became with Clym he still refused to bring her to Paris. That also portrayed his passionate side with his determination to complete his reading for the school he had wished to open before his tragic eye disease. He also had the struggle of pleasing his mother, which most of the time was very hard to accomplish. One particular quote I liked was said by Clym on page 209 during a conversation with his mother:
ReplyDelete“But one thing I have a right to say, which that at my age I am old enough to know what is best for me.”
Then she replied, “Best? Is it best for you to injure your prospects for such a voluptuous, idle woman as that? Don’t you see that by the very face of your choosing her you prove that you do not know what is best for you? You give up your whole thought – you set your whole soul – to please a woman.”
“I do. And that woman is you.”
I almost started to laugh when I read this haha. I just thought it was such a great come-back by Clym which his mother deserved.
My thoughts on Eustacia were that she was a complete and total brat. That may sound harsh but it seemed like all she cared about was the status of her lifestyle and how much better her life could have been. She was so busy consumed in having perfect happiness it seemed she never actually allowed her self to be truly happy. Maybe that is just because from the start she had been broken hearted from Wildeve. At one particular point during the book on page 253, Eustacia was really making me angry. She had visited Mrs. Yeobright and was very upset over their argument (which in the first place was ridiculous on Eustacia’s part considering she jumped all over Mrs. Yeobright for supposedly inferring that she had secretly been taking money and having relations with Wildeve, when that was not the case whatsoever). She immediately ran to Clym and begged him to move to Paris when she knew that he never intended to and his passion was starting the education. When he said he did not want to move to Paris in a very understanding and kind manner she just snapped back:
ReplyDelete“Must I not have a voice in the matter, now I am your wife and the sharer of your doom?”
“Well, there are things which are placed beyond the pale of discussion; and I thought this was specially so, and by mutual agreement.”
“Clym, I am unhappy at what I hear.”
I think that last line she said was the worst. To be honest I wanted to slap her in the face. Who does she think she is? She acts like she is his mother; she talks down to him. And when Clym inquires this eye disease, Eustacia is anything but supportive. She is completely humiliated by his new occupation, when Clym is just trying to provide food and a good life for an unappreciative wife. All the meanwhile he is trying to deal with the loss of his ability to do what he loves (read) and he is dealing with the separation between him and his mother. I completely lost respect for Eustacia when she saw that something very serious was occurring with Clym’s mother during her death. Eustacia returned home, instead of trying to help her desperate husband and mother-in-law and tell the truth of what happened earlier that day. Clym was never able to reconcile with his mother before she died.
Oh and Emma- I really liked your connection between Blanche and Eustacia. They are both way to engrossed in the materialistic and social status view of the world, which prevented them both from true happiness. In a way I think that led them both to their death. They were constantly looking for something else to complain about, something despairing in their life that could be better. Eventually Blanche was sent to a mental institution, her normal life was almost over as we know it; she would never return the same. Eustacia kept running, looking for more, which led her into the storm with Wildeve, and into the water and death.
Just a random thought; some books having meanings behind their character’s names. I was thinking about the name Wildeve. Maybe this symbolized how during the eve or the night, his wild side was shown. During the night he either was walking towards the direction of Eustacia’s cottage looking for her, or actually meeting with her in secrecy. Nothing but drama and wild and tangled messes came from his evenings.
My thoughts on Eustacia were that she was a complete and total brat. That may sound harsh but it seemed like all she cared about was the status of her lifestyle and how much better her life could have been. She was so busy consumed in having perfect happiness it seemed she never actually allowed her self to be truly happy. Maybe that is just because from the start she had been broken hearted from Wildeve. At one particular point during the book on page 253, Eustacia was really making me angry. She had visited Mrs. Yeobright and was very upset over their argument (which in the first place was ridiculous on Eustacia’s part considering she jumped all over Mrs. Yeobright for supposedly inferring that she had secretly been taking money and having relations with Wildeve, when that was not the case whatsoever). She immediately ran to Clym and begged him to move to Paris when she knew that he never intended to and his passion was starting the education. When he said he did not want to move to Paris in a very understanding and kind manner she just snapped back:
ReplyDelete“Must I not have a voice in the matter, now I am your wife and the sharer of your doom?”
“Well, there are things which are placed beyond the pale of discussion; and I thought this was specially so, and by mutual agreement.”
“Clym, I am unhappy at what I hear.”
I think that last line she said was the worst. To be honest I wanted to slap her in the face. Who does she think she is? She acts like she is his mother; she talks down to him. And when Clym inquires this eye disease, Eustacia is anything but supportive. She is completely humiliated by his new occupation, when Clym is just trying to provide food and a good life for an unappreciative wife. All the meanwhile he is trying to deal with the loss of his ability to do what he loves (read) and he is dealing with the separation between him and his mother. I completely lost respect for Eustacia when she saw that something very serious was occurring with Clym’s mother during her death. Eustacia returned home, instead of trying to help her desperate husband and mother-in-law and tell the truth of what happened earlier that day. Clym was never able to reconcile with his mother before she died.
Oh and Emma- I really liked your connection between Blanche and Eustacia. They are both way to engrossed in the materialistic and social status view of the world, which prevented them both from true happiness. In a way I think that led them both to their death. They were constantly looking for something else to complain about, something despairing in their life that could be better. Eventually Blanche was sent to a mental institution, her normal life was almost over as we know it; she would never return the same. Eustacia kept running, looking for more, which led her into the storm with Wildeve, and into the water and death.
Just a random thought; some books having meanings behind their character’s names. I was thinking about the name Wildeve. Maybe this symbolized how during the eve or the night, his wild side was shown. During the night he either was walking towards the direction of Eustacia’s cottage looking for her, or actually meeting with her in secrecy. Nothing but drama and wild and tangled messes came from his evenings.
My thoughts on Eustacia were that she was a complete and total brat. That may sound harsh but it seemed like all she cared about was the status of her lifestyle and how much better her life could have been. She was so busy consumed in having perfect happiness it seemed she never actually allowed her self to be truly happy. Maybe that is just because from the start she had been broken hearted from Wildeve. At one particular point during the book on page 253, Eustacia was really making me angry. She had visited Mrs. Yeobright and was very upset over their argument (which in the first place was ridiculous on Eustacia’s part considering she jumped all over Mrs. Yeobright for supposedly inferring that she had secretly been taking money and having relations with Wildeve, when that was not the case whatsoever). She immediately ran to Clym and begged him to move to Paris when she knew that he never intended to and his passion was starting the education. When he said he did not want to move to Paris in a very understanding and kind manner she just snapped back:
ReplyDelete“Must I not have a voice in the matter, now I am your wife and the sharer of your doom?”
“Well, there are things which are placed beyond the pale of discussion; and I thought this was specially so, and by mutual agreement.”
“Clym, I am unhappy at what I hear.”
I think that last line she said was the worst. To be honest I wanted to slap her in the face. Who does she think she is? She acts like she is his mother; she talks down to him. And when Clym inquires this eye disease, Eustacia is anything but supportive. She is completely humiliated by his new occupation, when Clym is just trying to provide food and a good life for an unappreciative wife. All the meanwhile he is trying to deal with the loss of his ability to do what he loves (read) and he is dealing with the separation between him and his mother. I completely lost respect for Eustacia when she saw that something very serious was occurring with Clym’s mother during her death. Eustacia returned home, instead of trying to help her desperate husband and mother-in-law and tell the truth of what happened earlier that day. Clym was never able to reconcile with his mother before she died.
Oh and Emma- I really liked your connection between Blanche and Eustacia. They are both way to engrossed in the materialistic and social status view of the world, which prevented them both from true happiness. In a way I think that led them both to their death. They were constantly looking for something else to complain about, something despairing in their life that could be better. Eventually Blanche was sent to a mental institution, her normal life was almost over as we know it; she would never return the same. Eustacia kept running, looking for more, which led her into the storm with Wildeve, and into the water and death.
ReplyDeleteJust a random thought; some books having meanings behind their character’s names. I was thinking about the name Wildeve. Maybe this symbolized how during the eve or the night, his wild side was shown. During the night he either was walking towards the direction of Eustacia’s cottage looking for her, or actually meeting with her in secrecy. Nothing but drama and wild and tangled messes came from his evenings.
Gregory said this a while back:
ReplyDelete"In the beginning of the part I read today, Mrs. Yeobright dies, and the characters spend many chapters after this trying to determine whose fault it was that she died. Why did they think it was anyone's fault? It was chance that killed Mrs. Yeobright, the diabolical coincidence of a hot day and a hungry snake."
It made me think of the role of fate in this book. There is a great deal of coincidence involved in the story- the scene where characters gamble for the inheritance, Mrs. Yeobright's death. It seems like a realistic book, but there are some almost supernatural qualities to it. Perhaps Eustacia, described with "Pagan" eyes, is the center of all this? Was Hardy trying to say that there was an element of real magic in the Heath?
Brittany- I think that Eustacia was the center of the chaos in a literal sense, but I personally don't think that she had any supernatural powers herself. I think it was more sheer coincidence and fate. If you think about it, the only "magic" absolutely evident with no question of use is Susan Nunsuch's voodoo doll of Eustacia. Additionally, Eustacia was perhaps the unluckiest character of the book (with the exception of Christian, as he described himself)-- she loses her true love to another woman, her mother-in-law hates her and her family, she doesn't end up fulfilling her desire to leave the Heath, and she dies by drowning in an attempt to get away from the Heath. In my opinion, the Heath was not so much magical as much as it was defiant and strong. (Just as a side note, it sort of reminds me of last year's English class with the poem about the tide never stopping and nature continuing to go on, no matter what.) But that is just the way I see it. Hardy very well may have been superstitious himself (or his observation of other people around him, or maybe he just liked the idea of adding magic and fate into a book) and incorporated it into the book. One never knows Hardy's true intentions-- for all we know he may be turning over in his grave as we may just make up all of these assumptions and guesses.
ReplyDeleteSo, I've finally finished Return of the Native! My thoughts on the book are as follows:
ReplyDelete1. Although I dislike Eustacia, I could immediately and completely understand her desire to leave Egdon Heath, because I feel the same way about Tolland (although not to her extreme). I think that if I was born in that time period, I would have done my best to escape like she did, although I probably wouldn't have done it the same way. I'm not as dramatic as Eustacia is.
2. In general, I can say that I enjoyed this book. It was a bit slow, and had too much description for my taste but I enjoyed the story. One thing that did annoy me were the little "side stories" that happened a few times in the book. For example, the whole story about Clym and Thomasin's money? I thought it was kind of unnecessary in a book that was already a bit slow to begin with.
3. The thing that I enjoyed most about Return of the Native was that it made me think about the consequences of our actions. This book shows the reader that even little things can have big repercussions. One instance of this is Eustacia ignoring the knock at the door- just by not answering (referring to the first time Mrs. Yeobright knocked), she single-handedly destroyed her already unstable marriage, harmed Clym beyond repair and drove herself into depression, which lead to her death. Its strange to imagine how differently the book would have ended if that door knock was answered.
Marissa
Book Fourth
ReplyDeleteThe back of the book gave away the significance of the title, but I think Eustacia said it better on page 274: “‘If you had never returned to your native place, Clym, what a blessing it would have been for you! … It has altered the destinites of—’ ‘Three people.’ ‘Five,’ Eustacia thought; but she kept that in.” She has a good point…if Clym hadn’t returned, none of this would have happened.
And Diggory Venn is back! He is just like he was before – only looking out for Thomasin; but now he is a little more hateful and a lot more manipulative. He has taken it upon himself to set Wildeve straight so that he will not hurt Thomasin: “From the impeachment of Strafford to Farmer Lynch’s short way with the scamps of Virginia there have been many triumphs of justice which are mockeries of law” (271). But, I am afraid that Venn might take his mission of protecting Thomasin too far. He might just end up hurting her if his sense of “duty,” now fueled a bit more by jealousy than caring, takes over his ability to think rationally.
A quick comment: I love the way the story is told from different points of view. It takes place on the heath and is observed almost as if by the heath itself instead of the characters. For example, Mrs. Yeobright watched Wildeve approach Clym’s house, then the point of view switched to inside the house and we observe Eustacia and Wildeve talking. The story followed Mrs. Yeobright out onto the heath, then followed Clym as he walked until he found her, then moved to Eustacia as she looked into the lighted hut to watch Mrs. Yeobright’s death. The only thing that was confusing for me was that sometimes I was not sure which characters knew what, but for the most part I think that the story told from the omniscient point of view of the heath was a brilliant way to tell the story. For example, the fact that we learn about Eustacia’s injury at church as Clym hears about it highlights his reaction to it. I love the omniscient point of view that exists to show what characters are really thinking and feeling, even when they believe nobody is watching. Maybe this ties back into the heath as a character. Egdon Heath is the only permanent thing that exists in the impermanence of civilization. Thus, the heath itself watches the tangled story as it unfolds and as people sometimes pretend to be different from who they really are. But in the end all slates are wiped clean and only the true character remains – in death, Eustacia had “dignity” and “stateliness of look” and “her black hair was looser” (371), showing how she had returned to her natural state of freedom and independence.
I finally finished The Return of the Native (even though it was two days ago). Anyway, this book definitely started off real slow. If it had not been required to read, I would definitely not have continued on with this book. Just as with many of you, it took me the same amount of time to read Book 1 as it did to read the rest of the book. After Book 1 finished, I started to get into it more. The storyline developed a lot more and I found that all the characters introduced in Book 1 were starting to get developed and have a point in the book. By Book 4, I was hooked into the book as more started happening. Although this is probably my least favorite of the three, I did enjoy the storyline of this book more than that of A Moon for the Misbegotten, which is because I didn’t care for what was taken place in A Moon for the Misbegotten and I found that Return of the Native had a really good plot to it.
ReplyDeleteI found the way Hardy wrote portions of the book to be quite different from what I’m used to. One example of this is when two characters were in one place and then parted, he would then have a paragraph go to one and then another paragraph (and possibly the rest of the chapter) go to the other character, which I just found interesting because I was able to keep up with who was who. I also liked how we saw the whole story through different eyes and not just one characters point of view. This really helped to give a good sense of the problems happening in the characters lives.
Now, I know that Book 1 was extremely hard to get through, being all description, but I think that it helped to develop what came to happen in the rest of the book. Without some of the description, I think that I would have been more lost than it being there. In the beginning I was very confused at the whole bonfire chapter, but then it all made sense in Book 2 as things were explained further and became apparent that it was an important part to the plot.
My last thing I want to add, and maybe it’s just me (haven’t read any other comments), but I felt that this was almost like a Romeo and Juliet story. In Romeo and Juliet, most of the characters died at the end, and I felt here that most of the main unimportant characters also died. I don’t know, just reminded me a lot of Romeo and Juliet. Even the plot seemed to connect with the tragedies the happened.
Dylan/Erika: Dylan, I like your translation of what Hardy was trying to symbolize with his name and have to agree. That is exactly what I had been thinking each time I read his name. I think there was a double meaning type thing going on with his name because I liked what Erika said about eve being the night and him being wild then. I have to agree with that because each time Wildeve went to see Eustacia, it was mostly during the night and that’s when things went wild. I think that between the two symbolisms, I would have to say that they both fit Wildeve nicely and almost go hand in hand with each other.
-Matt Gaudio
The Return of the Native was my favorite of the three books. I think the best part about the book was two main things: the characters and the setting. Hardy shaped each character very specifically and did a good job in giving them all a purpose in the story. Eustacia could not settle for a quiet life in Egdon, and so both Wildeve and Clym come into her life with very appealing assets to her escape from Egdon. I didn't like Eustacia very much because she fell in love with two men but did not have any trouble leaving them when the other was wealthier or more likely to leave Egdon. I also thought that Wildeve and Clym were weak for wanting to be with Eustacia even after she left them for the other man. Besides the three main characters, I also liked the side plot of Diggory Venn and his constant search for Thomasin's love. I thought it was interesting that the story opened with Venn, but he didn't end up being a main character as I assumed he would.
ReplyDeleteOne of the only parts of the story that was confusing and less believable than the rest was the deaths of Eustacia and Wildeve. It was confusing mainly because I couldn't really tell how they ended up in the weir, but I probably just missed something. It was less believable than the rest of the story because it was an extreme ending to their lives, which I found slightly unrealistic. I thought that Clym surviving made sense because he survived through his blindness and eventually was able to see somewhat. I think the deaths of Wildeve and Eustacia were likely because of a karma-like situation. They both were unfaithful and deceitful, while Clym was always trying to be a good husband to Eustacia.
The entire story would never had made sense if it were not for the setting. The heath was what made Eustacia leave Wildeve in the desire for a more elegant life. It is also what made her marriage with Clym go wrong, as he desired to stay there while Eustacia wanted to leave. These couple of instances are what make the story, and they are all due to the setting.
-Alex Clifford
Let's see if I can respond to everyone's comments. From the beginning, since I last posted:
ReplyDeleteDylan: It seems to me like the point you're making now is different than the point you were trying to make earlier. I agree that Clym had an impact on Thomasin and Wildeve's marriage (after they got married), but that wasn't really what we were talking about earlier. Clym's entrance into the book and the heath did not make Thomasin and Wildeve marry, as you have claimed. Clym's entrance simply altered the relationship between Eustacia and Wildeve (this happened after Wildeve and Thomasin were married), which in turn affected the marriage. By the way, I completely agree with your response to Brittany.
Marissa: I agree with you as well. I certainly want to live somewhere more interesting than some plain suburban town like Tolland, somewhere with more things to do outdoors. If I lived in that time, I would probably try to escape illicitly, because back then college was very rare and parents were more the bossy, 'stay here' type (such as Mrs. Yeobright). I also agree with your comments about the book itself, and I have a possible scenario about what would have happened if Eustacia had answered the door. Mrs. Yeobright would have entered, and she and Eustacia would inevitably have gotten into some huge argument that Clym would not have been able to resolve. Mrs. Yeobright would have left the house feeling not so bad towards Clym but extremely angry towards Eustacia, she would probably still have been bitten by the snake, and she probably still would have died. However, Clym would not have been able to blame Eustacia, but Clym would have been distraught anyway. Clym would have continued living with Eustacia, who would not have been thrilled with Clym's state of mind, and she would not have walked past Susan Nunsuch's house, so she would not have been cursed, and Wildeve's plan to go to Paris with her would have worked.
Stephanie: Why don't you like Diggory Venn? How is he hateful? I thought he was a nice, caring guy, who always stood up for Thomasin when she or something of hers was in danger, but never took his mission too far; he never hurt anyone. How is he bad?
Matt: Please explain how A Moon for the Misbegotten is possibly better than The Return of the Native. And for that matter, please explain how Goldengrove is better than The Return of the Native. The Return of the Native has a great plot (A Moon for the Misbegotten's plot is boring) and well-developed and diverse characters (Goldengrove's characters are all similar in many ways). I'm curious what you have against The Return of the Native.
And...
Alex: I agree with you completely.
Okay, this post is way too long, but I got in everything I had to say. Good.
~ Gregory Naigles ~
Well Gregorio, I haven't quite finished the book yet so I don't really know if Diggory is going to keep going with his violence against Wildeve. I just read the part about Diggory shooting at Wildeve when he was visiting Eustacia. I feel like maybe talking to him would be the better choice. I like him still because he has good intentions, but I'm not sure that the "rough coercion" is the best way to go. I liked Mrs. Yeobright's method of encouraging Clym to go back to Paris (but we all know where that got her). So maybe the best thing is for everyone to just sit down and talk. Olivia said, "Communication is key in any marriage," and I think that this advice could go far for all relationships.
ReplyDeleteBut I will finish it tonight and let you know. :)
Dylan- I guess you're right about the extra characters. Hardy would not put in information and characters if they did not play any sort of part in the book. Now that I think about it, I guess they did provide a little insight and opinions of others about the main characters and had an impact on the setting of the heath too.
ReplyDeleteErika- totally agreeing with you on the "My thoughts on Eustacia were that she was a complete and total brat." I don't think it is harsh at all. She didn't change one bit throughout the book. She is so self centered!!! Clym told her what he wanted to do and said at least a million times that he did not want to go back to Paris and live like he had but she thought she could change his mind and kept bugging him about it. She always tried to find an easy way out for herself. If she wanted to get out so bad then she should have found some way to do it by herself. I also felt that she didn't love Clym for who he was, but rather what she could gain from him. Clym is such a sweet guy and cared for Eustacia a lot, but I think she took him for granted and did not appreciate the humble life he wanted to live. Clym deserved better than that brat. If you have not noticed already Eustacia is my least favorite character next to Wildeve and Clym and Diggory are my favorite haha.. just saying.
Marissa- I felt like the side stories were a bit off-topic, but they also helped the plot and character development to a certain extent. The side story you mentioned also explained some crucial details which were later relevant in the overall plot. In addition, that side stories built up the idea of karma and revenge.
ReplyDeleteStephanie- I'm a little surprised with what you said about the point of view changes. First of all, I will agree that they were necessary and beneficial to the story as a whole. However, and this may just be me, I found that it was confusing to tell whose point of view it was and the purpose of having the scene played out with that POV (especially at the beginning when I was first getting accustomed to Hardy's writing style).
Matt- I disagree with what you said about Book One. I felt as if Hardy very easily could have condensed all of Book One into a few sentences and put them at the beginning of Book Two. It would not have given the book such a long, drawn out start; therefore, I may have been more apt to like it from the beginning. When books begin slowly and get better (especially “Return of the Native”), I feel like it does the book an injustice since it gives me a bad impression from the get-go. Luckily, this book drew me in after its lengthy start (for me, that is extremely hard to do) and my impression of it quickly turned around as soon as Book Two started.
Alex- I found that Hardy’s introduction with Venn a bit surprising and misleading, too. I think that it was a bit confusing. However, after reading through the rest of the book, it truly does not surprise me that Hardy decided to open the book that way. It was just another time where he made you expect one thing and gave you another.
Gregory- I do not believe I have changed my point about Clym affecting the marriage; however, I may have reworded what I originally said to make myself a bit clearer. In other words, I probably explained myself better (or in a way which you find more appealing) in the latter posts.
Dylan, I really like your explanation of "Damon Wildeve".
ReplyDeleteStephanie, I think it's really interesting how you think of Venn as "hateful and manipulative" and I thought about it and I realized that I agree / can see what you mean. Venn takes a similar "holier-than-thou" attitude to the one that everyone who hates Eustacia seems to hate in Eustacia, yet love in Venn. He seems to think of himself as above the fray and almost "godlike". He tries to fix everyone else's problems, but, as you see in the dice game, sometimes they stay messed up. Why does he think it is his job to fix all these problems? I think the reason that no one has pointed this out and disliked him (besides you) is that we see so little of him that we don't see his bad side (if he has one). To the reader who only looks at what is portrayed in the book, he is good enough to deserve that attitude because he really is better than the rest of the characters, but he's not a main character so we don't see if maybe he has a bad side too. Also, either I read somewhere or someone earlier said that Venn is a sort of personification of the heath, which could add to the "holier-than-thou" thing since the heath is a big part of the "fate" that keeps popping up and fate sort of "rules over" everything. Anyway, personally, I was okay with Venn but now that I think about this I can definitely see this point of view.
Alex and Dylan, I think Hardy opened it with Venn because he really opened it with the heath, and since Venn could be a "personification" of the heath, one of the first people we see is Venn.
Book Fifth
ReplyDeleteBravo, Thomas Hardy. This is certainly a “darkly ironic ending.” Wildeve and Eustacia ended up together forever, united in death for all of eternity. Wildeve always said he would give Eustacia anything, and he ultimately gave up his life for her. The only thing that had been keeping the two lovers apart were their earthly ties – Wildeve to Thomasin and Eustacia to Clym. Now that their mundane responsibilities are completely broken, they are free to be together.
I loved the imagery of the money drying by the fire: “…the double row of bank-notes…waved backwards and forwards in the draught of the chimney till their flaccidity was changed to dry crispness throughout” (370). Money was never even close to making Wildeve content because all he wanted was Eustacia. So in reuniting with his love in death, he left the money behind. Foreshadowing: Diggory watched the money dry out – will he inherit it if he marries the now-single Thomasin? But Diggory was never interested in money… will he become greedy now?
I noticed that a good deal of the events in this book only occur because of a bit of chance – things happen at just the wrong time and lead to catastrophic events. For example, Mrs. Yeobright didn’t wait at the door a few minutes longer and the woman just happened to be sitting on the heath when the adder went by, but these incidents resulted in her death. Eustacia’s and Wildeve’s deaths occurred through a series of things happening in bad timing – Clym waited a day too long to contact Eustacia; Fairway forgot to deliver Clym’s message until later; Eustacia left the house just before her grandfather could catch her; Eustacia passed Diggory’s van too fast so he couldn’t guide her away from the pool as he did for Thomasin; Clym didn’t arrive at Wildeve’s soon enough to talk him out of leaving; Wildeve and Clym were just a bit too slow to save Eustacia; Diggory couldn’t lift the men out in time to save them. Flip back to 132: “On Egon there was no absolute hour of the day. The time at any moment was a number of varying doctrines professed by the different hamlets, some of them having originally grown up from a common root, and then become divided by secession, some having been alien from the beginning.” This draws attention to the fallibility of time on Egdon, foreshadowing that just a few minutes in time, lost or gained, can make all the difference.
Book Sixth
ReplyDeleteYES - Finally done. That was not painful at all though. I liked that ending.
I love how Thomasin and Diggory Venn ended up together. (I agree now that Diggory was the most well-intentioned guy in the book. He must have been extremely tempted to get rid of Wildeve when he had the gun and to steal the guineas or the drying money when he had the chance. So, I guess I just expected him to fall to that temptation like many of the other characters did. But Diggory stayed good to the end.:) I like him.) Diggory was the only one who ever actually deserved her and he has loved her the most for the longest. He was there for Thomasin even after she turned him away – twice. He was selfless, never asking for anything in return when he helped his love. When he won back the family guineas for Thomsin, he returned them anonymously, not for the glory or praise of it but solely for the benefit of Thomasin. He even risked his own life to save that of her husband’s, even though he must have been extremely jealous of Wildeve. Nobody else ever loved her as much as Diggory did. Wildeve only loved her as a passing fancy – he said that he hadn’t cared much if he married Eustacia or Thomasin, and Wildeve married her mostly to make Eustacia jealous. Clym didn’t have any love left to give her (Page 387 - “His passion for Eustacia had been a sort of conserve of his wholde life, and he had nothing more of that supreme quality left to bestow.”), and he only would have married her out of his sense of duty to Thomasin and his mother.
I also like the ending for Clym. But, I can’t help but feel like he deserved more – he was successful in Paris, and had is whole life ahead of him. *Gregory/Dylan: Going back to the chain reaction posts (now that I can go back and read without spoiling the ending), I agree that none of this would have happened if Clym had stayed away. In returning to the heath, Clym was pulled all the way down to a half blind furze-cutter - “‘In comparison with slaves, and the Israelites in Egypt, and such people,’” according to Eustacia (252). Eustacia pointed out that none of this would have happened if Clym had not returned “‘If you had never returned to your native place, Clym, what a blessing it would have been for you! ... It has altered the destinies of—’ ‘Three people.’ ‘Five,’ Eustacia thought; but she kept that in” (274). But I believe Clym was truly happy, unlike Eustacia in the same situation: “‘I do not deserve my lot’” (350). When he found out about his temporary blindness, “A quiet firmness, and even cheerfulness, took possession of him” (250). “Yeobright was an absolute stoic in the face of mishaps which only affected his social standing; and, apart from Eustacia, the humblest walk of life would satisfy him if it could be make to work in with some form of his culture scheme” (250-251). In his life as a lowly furze-cutter, he was “cheerfully disposed and clam” (252), enjoying the natural beauty of the heath day to day. Clym is cut out for life on the heath, so his new “vocation” is good for him. He always wanted to teach others and better society. The logical career path had been to become a teacher. But as it turns out, he has now learned a great deal more about life from the twisted soap opera he just went through than he ever learned about scholarly lessons from his books. So, he chose to be a preacher so he can pass on the morals and life lessons he has learned to the people of Egdon. As an example, Hardy includes his first sermon (401). It is all about listening to one’s mother no matter what your position in life is. Even you are very successful to madly in love or a king, a mother always knows best. Clym definitely learned that in the past year, as if he had just listened to his mother and gone back to Paris, none of these tragedies would have happened.
Beverly- I agree with your analysis of Venn versus Eustacia. The way you explained it was exactly what I was thinking since I completed the book. As far as your question about Venn trying to fix everybody's problems, it could just be part of his character and personality. On a different note, there was some personal benefit for himself if he "helped" in just the right ways and just the right times, especially at the end of the book with the weir. By helping Thomasin throughout the book, he unknowingly kind of won her heart back a little bit at a time (even if most of these interactions were dominated by chance, fate, and timing). Coincidentially, once Wildeve meets his fate in the weir, Thomasin was a "free woman" again. Venn was her noble knight in shining armor (in a way), making him a very possible new husband. I hope that sort of answers your question and makes some sense.
ReplyDeleteI just finished The Return of the Native yesterday and I was fairly surprised at the ending. I expected the best best laid plan of all these mice and men to go askew, but I did not expect it to come in death. As I noted earlier I expected Venn's love for Thomasin to become fervent and that to cause the chaos. I think the main message of this story can be summed up in this quotation from page 365 "O, how hard it is of Heaven to devise such tortures for me, who have done no harm to Heaven at all" and this old English saying "Wyrd bið ful aræd" which roughly translates to "fate is inexorable." There are many points in this story where fate seems determined to undermine the characters plans and lives. Two such points are when Eustatia went to flee from the heath just as Clym's letter arrived at her house or when Clym just so happen to say "mother" in his sleep as if he acknowledged his mother at the door. I found it somewhat amusing that Susan Nunsuch used clichéd witchcraft on Eustacia for supposedly being a which. I really do not like how Thomas Hardy was forced to abandon Diggory Venn's character in the ending for "certain circumstances for serial publication."
ReplyDeleteP.S Gregory, although I disagree with Napoleon's treatment of the countries he conquered, which he pretty much took from Machiavelli's The Prince, he managed to bring order to France during the insanity which was the French revolution. He also conquered the vast majority of Europe because of his military GENUIS and brilliant use of artillery. Oh, where are you getting the idea that he committed genocide like Tojo. He is much more comparable to Genghis Khan. They both killed to advance their political status not for racial supremacy. He actually established a well accepted code of law known as the Napoleonic Code. I believe both France and Louisiana both use it as their primary code of law.
Unlike Mr. MacArthur's prediction, "Return of the Native" was my most favorite of the three books this summer. It was the hardest to get through, but that did not detract from how much I enjoyed the book. The beginning was definitely hard to get in to, and I wish that that wasn't the case; it started me off on the wrong foot. However, I loved how detailed the characters were and how the plot unfolded. Although it was a little confusing and took some time to get accustomed to, I enjoyed Hardy's use of changing point of view. From Book Two through Book Six, I found myself becoming more and more engulfed in the story. Unlike most books written from this time period or earlier which we have read for school, I did not mind the dialogue or others things of the sort. I appreciate that Mr. MacArthur assigned this book because it is not a book I would typically read, but it was a book that I enjoyed nonetheless. This was my most favorite book of the summer for Hardy's well-thought-out characters and plot. What made this book more enjoyable than "Goldengrove" was that it got better as it went on, and the ending was unrivalled.
ReplyDeleteGregory: I'm glad you pointed that out because it was not what I had meant to say (a complete mistype). It should've said that A Moon for the Misbegotten was my least favorite, which would make more sense with what I wrote after that sentence (sorry for that confusion). I liked Goldengrove better because it wasn't as drawn out as I felt Return of the Native to be at points.
ReplyDeleteDylan: I understand where you are coming from, but I disagree with you that Book One should've been condensed. I think that without that first book, there would've been more confusion about what was happening in the second book. Also I think that at some point he would've had to of gone into further description later on in the book if he were to condense it, thus taking away from the plot. Also the heath made the story, so without all the description of book one, the story would've gotten lost at times.
-Matt Gaudio
After the somewhat sluggish introduction, Hardy initialized his story with a depth and efficiency that more than makes up for the less-than-invigorating exposition. To be honest, Mr. Mac's reassurance in this blog post is the only reason I kept reading. But now that I've finished the book, I'm very glad I did. I did read this book while travelling; however, so my memory and/or grasp or the storyline is spotty at best. I will definitely have to read it again if we're going to discuss it in class.
ReplyDeleteMy thoughts on the book, mostly reactionary because i've read this whole discussion:
1. I agree with Erika and Sharon, Eustacia is a total narcissist, sometimes to a point where it's annoying. Her betrayal of Thomasin was selfishly motivated, she's basically a spoiled whiny brat throughout.
2. I'm pretty convinced they didn't react with terror to the death of Ms. Yeobright because people were a lot better at handling death back then. Life was so short back then for so many people, terrorizing themselves over every death would probably end in them meeting their own.
3. My favorite part of this book is Hardy's character development. he may have made Eustacia a brat, but he did so with the utmost attention to detail. She loves napoleon, who was a dictator, and acts as if she thinks of herself as a dictator - she expects Clym to go with her to Paris even though he very clearly told her he would never go back. She pestered him for his return from paris, guilting him frequently for how he had "changed the lives of 3 -- 5 people" when she had no idea what he had done at the time.
I will start out my post by confessing that I put the reputation of an Honors Kid to shame. School starts in three days and I am only on page 175 of The Return of the Native.
ReplyDeleteSince I'm not 100% sure that I'm correctly comprehending what I'm reading in this book, my posts for The Return of the Native could be way off (and stupid) so be prepared.
After finishing the other two summer reading books in less than 48 hours, this book was EXTREMELY hard for me to get into. As I said in my post a few weeks ago, I opened the book, read the first paragraph, and closed it. I'm not quite sure when the book started to get good, but I'm finally starting to get the hang of what's going on. I mean, it's not like I'm dying to keep reading (trust me, I have no problem putting the book down and walking away for a couple of hours, or days..) but the book is somewhat decent I suppose. My mom said to me today, "Elizabeth, I will be so proud of you when you finish that book," and I must admit that I will be SO proud of myself when I finally finish it. The way the author puts his sentences together kills me. Seriously. Has he even heard of punctuation?! Thomas Hardy: there are these things called commas which come in incredibly handy when someone is trying to read!
Anyways, as Mr. MacArthur said, this book started out slow. REAL slow. I had to re-read the first 20 pages about five or six times before I actually was able to comprehend what I was even reading.
- Liz Elliott
One thing I noticed right off the bat was that whenever Thomas Hardy used a simile, metaphor, or some type of a comparison, he always connected whatever the topic was to nature or "earthy" type things as I tend to call them. For example: "eyes like planets," "quivering as leaves," "evanescent as lightening," and "wrinkles were emphasized to ravines." I think this says so much about the book and it's "natural" roots, if that makes any sense to anyone. I guess what I'm trying to say is how the book undoubtedly returns to simpler times (i.e., getting water from a well in your yard) and how the authors comparisons reflect just that.
ReplyDeleteConfession: for the first, oh, 25 pages or so I was SO confused as to what a "heath" even was. When it comes to the setting of this story, I just can't get past the image of Egdon Heath which I have formed in my head. Unlike most of you who probably have the newer version of this book with the introduction and the map and those sorts of things, I have the older version of the book that my brother read when he took AP/H English (it doesn't have the map and all that stuff), and even though the cover of my book shows cows grazing in the grass and beautiful trees and a pond, I just can't help but imagine Egdon Heath to be all desert. Every time Egdon Heath is brought up in the story, all I picture is sand and mountains and tumbleweeds. Sort of like the setting of the movie Holes. I believe that I have this image in my head because of the line which reads, "Along the road walked an old man." To me, he's walking in a desert. Whenever trees are mentioned in this story, I have to remind myself that this doesn't take place in a desert. This probably has absolutely no relevance to anyone, but that's just what I see.
I find that when Harding goes into long paragraphs of description, I quickly get bored. I DO NOT need to read three paragraphs about Mr. Fairway trying to find a nail to hang his hat on at Mrs. Yeobright's Christmas party. One word: overkill. In my opinion, it needs to be toned down. I'm pretty sure that this book could be 100 pages shorter without all of the excess description.
- Liz Elliott
I will go into more detail about the characters later on, but for right now I'll just say a few things about them. For starters, I think that it is so sad that Mrs. Yeobright was unable to see neither her niece nor her son get married. Those weddings would have been huge moments in her life is she had been able to witness them, and she was just hung out to dry. When I read that she had to imagine the scene at the church at Clym's wedding and how she had to picture certain things about the ceremony in her head, I just felt so bad for the poor woman.
ReplyDeleteAs I've read certain unique things that certain characters do, I have found a few similarities between myself and them. For instance, when Eustacia said that "the unknown fills [her] mind with terrible possibilities," I said to myself, "Hey, me too!" The motto "mind over matter" does not apply to my life, and I hate that I always assume the worst in every possible situation. When Eustacia said this, she had been referring to the love between her and Clym. I slightly agree with what she meant, about how love isn't guaranteed. Expect the worst, but hope for the best I suppose.
I am in love with the character of the reddleman. Another confession: I had to ask Julie Finke what the heck a reddleman even was, but I think that he's just so great. If reddlemen existed in everyday life today, I would compare them to bikers. I mean, they are regular people just like you and me, but everyone is just little bit afraid of them, right?
- Liz Elliott
I'm a little confused at one thing still: Eustacia was all like, "OMG I love Clym so so so so much," and I mean, she went to Mrs. Yeobright's Christmas party to creep on him, but then later on when Eustacia and Clym meet at the eclipse, she's not too obsessed with him. Did I miss something that happened in their relationship, or is it just Mrs. Yeobright who freaks Eustacia out a little bit?
ReplyDeleteI thought that I was clueless about what was going on in this book, but after giving Julie Finke a quick summary of what I thought was going on, it seemed as though I was on the right track, so I hope this post doesn't sound dumb. I haven't read any of the posts before mine, so please don't shun me if this post is weak.
I don't hate this book as much as I did when I started reading it, but I definitely still hate it. I'm trying to figure out what I can buy myself as a reward for finishing this book... I think I can, I think I can.
More posts to come later.
- Liz Elliott
I forgot to mention a few things in my first few posts about The Return of the Native. As I was flipping through the book I was looking at all of the notes I wrote in the margins so I will quickly just comment on some more things.
ReplyDeleteOn page 64 I wrote the word 'ouch' in a box at the part where Eustacia asked Wildeve if he loved her and he said (mischievously as the book says) that she isn't the whole world to him that she used to be, but that she was a pleasant lady to know, and nice to meet, and dare he say as sweet as ever -- almost. Again, OUCH. No girl wants to hear that.
On page 97 I thought it was so creative how the author wrote that on Egdon there was no absolute hour of the day. I loved how certain areas believed in certain types of time. I have never read a book that thinks of time in this way, so it was pretty unique for me to come across.
On page 115 I put lots of hearts around the part that basically describes how if Venn can't be with Eustacia, then he just wants what is best for her and he wants her to get the man that she deserves. This is so incredibly sweet of the reddleman. He just wants her to be happy and he is willing to sacrifice his happiness for hers. So sweet!
Lastly, on page 116, (Eustacia's breakup letter to Wildeve) I underlined the parts that talk about how Wildeve left Eustacia for Thomasin and how the things that she was returning to him should have rightly been sent back to him when Eustacia first heard of Wildeve's engagement to Thomasin. I was so proud of Eustacia for writing the letter the way that she did. It was a real kick in the pants to Wildeve.
More posts to come later.
- Liz Elliott
Okay. Time for another post to respond to everyone. From the beginning:
ReplyDeleteSharon and anyone else who was saying Eustacia was a selfish brat: I partially agree. There are definitely many examples you could point to in the book to show that she was a selfish brat, including when she criticized Clym for becoming a furze-cutter and her insistence on going to Paris even though Clym never said they would. However, usually I strongly dislike characters who are selfish brats, and I don't strongly dislike Eustacia, I slightly dislike her. Maybe she just seems okay in comparison to Mrs. Yeobright.
Dylan: Maybe you did explain it better. I just hope that now we both understand each other's points of view.
Stephanie: I'm glad you've changed your mind on Venn. I can see how you might not have liked him at the time of his 'rough coercion' on Wildeve, but at that time of the book I really didn't like Wildeve (I never regained my liking for him that I had at the very beginning), and so I didn't mind Venn playing tricks on him. Venn was, of course, only looking out for Thomasin, who was clearly impressed by his devotion, and they married.
Dylan again: Fully agree with your response to Beverly's comment. (Amazed?)
Alex: About the reason for Genghis Khan/Tojo's killing: I really don't care why they killed huge numbers of people; all I care is that they did kill huge numbers of people. If Genghis Khan killed huge numbers of people when he was off conquering, then he was a bad person. I don't care how smart he was, or how clever his military tactics are. Killing is killing.
Also about Louisiana: We see how far the Napoleanic code got them! (Louisiana being, without a doubt, one of the worst states in the nation).
Dylan for the third time: Completely agree again. We must be on a roll.
Matt: I now understand what you mean. While I personally liked The Return of the Native better than Goldengrove, I do see how, during the first half of The Return of the Native, you could say it was drawn out. I personally don't think it was, besides the first few chapters, probably because I have read several also-very-drawn-out books, so I'm more used to it.
That's it for now!
~ Gregory Naigles ~
Ok, I am kind of coming in randomly here but I wanted to share my input on the conversation I just read. So, here are my thoughts...
ReplyDeleteAbout the beginning of the book being condensed or not; I believe it could have been condensed because I liked the book and fully understood it, even though the entire first chapter went over my head. I do not think the entire first book should be cut out, that would be devastating, but I do think the description of the Heath prior to the introduction of Venn, could be shortened. Although it is very important to introduce the Heath, it could have been done with a few less words. After completing the book the dilemma about the first twenty pages being condensed or not seems circumstantial, because so much action takes place in the rest of the book, that I rarely find myself focusing on that aspect of the story.
Also, I would just like to touch on the subject of fate in this book. Everything in this book - much like life itself - is crucial to the series of events. I would list some, but honestly every event was just as important as the next. One thing that I did find odd though, was that for every character except Venn the weird circumstances seemed completely believable. I found it bizarre that Digory mysteriously appeared in order to win back Thomasin's inheritance or that he was in the woods the night Eustacia and Wildeve fell in the weir. I just never believed it was a coincidence with Venn, and that is why I feel like Venn could represent an element of fate on the Heath. Or even be the embodiment of the Heath itself. Another thought I had was that Venn was responsible for setting things right on the Heath. Throughout the story he was always a dark shade of red, possibly representing evil on the Heath. The evil being Eustacia, Clym, Wildeve and Thomasin all being with the wrong person. When things were finally set right he turned back to white, representing good on the Heath. And he always seemed to pop up at the right times to help things end up the way they were supposed to.
Also, I have a question regarding Clym’s arrival on the Heath. If Clym had not arrived, I agree the entire plot would not have worked. But my question is let’s Clym spent the Christmas in Paris and never returned to Egdon Heath, would Eusatcia have ended up with Wildeve. A big part of me thinks she would have because I believe Wildeve always loved her more than Thomasin, but maybe they were really done before Clym showed up…opinions???
I’ve been in Cape Cod then doing things with my sister who is home from college so I haven’t been on the computer much. Return of the Native got easier to read as I went on. Now when I go back to review a page number I wrote down in my notes, there is so much on the page. I remembered that page for one reason, but didn’t focus on all the words surrounding it until I went back. I feel like I got a lot out of the characters and their actions, but reading the whole thing again, I would definitely pay more attention to the descriptions. When you’re in the middle of all the drama, the love and pride and fantasy are your biggest concern.
ReplyDeleteI still am quite surprised how much this book resembles a soap opera. First Eustacia wants Wildeve, but then Thomasin doesn’t want him, so Eustacia doesn’t either. Then she convinces herself to “love” Clym, but her dreams of Paris are shattered. And we can’t forget about poor Mrs. Yeobright, with her broken heart. It’s all a mess. Frankly, I think that Eustacia could have prevented all the heart-ache and confusion, and eventually her death, by coming to terms with reality. She has a fantasy in her head of what she wants to happen, an intense feeling, the opposite of tame. But she tries to force her idea onto Wildeve, then Clym. Instead of building a mutual and communicative relationship, she shuts each of them off. A relationship has to be open to vulnerability, but Eustacia never truly let herself get close to anyone because she was so concerned with her version of love. She ranted about how she was in love plenty of times, but she was in love with imagination and charm. Wildeve treated her more of a possession than a love, and Clym was a great guy with a noble purpose but she wasn’t satisfied. I would usually support not settling for less than what you want, but she is so lost about what she wants. Neither man was good enough for her materialistic and selfish standards. It says on page 75 “She only valued rest to herself when it came in the midst of other people’s labor.” She had no idea that you have to give up some of what you thought you wanted, to understand what will actually make you happy. Maybe Thomas Hardy’s point was that she became victim to the heath because she hated it so much. He seems like a pessimist to me. In the first version of the book, Thomasin and Venn didn’t end up together, people were so upset after finishing it that he had to write a new, more pleasant ending!
My favorite quote about Eustacia is, “She had advanced to the secret recesses of sensuousness, yet had hardly crossed the threshold of conventionality.” She could understand there was so much emotion to be felt, but could not find the means to actually get there. She tried to force everything too much. I like Josie better, she wasn’t looking for love but when she and Tyrone spent that different night together, she let herself change. Love isn’t something you can imagine up. Eustacia said about Diggory, “What a strange sort of love, to be entirely free from that quality of selfishness…” She dreads thinking of the future. When I was ten all I wanted to be was older. It seems to me Eustacia has ten-year-old logic in a nineteen-year-old’s situation, able to marry, ect. She blames everyone else for her problems and says the Heavens are torturing her. In my opinion, she had a good husband with potential to love her a lot, but she tortures herself. She has never physically suffered a day in her life, but is pampered by Clym after he gets home from furze-cutting. And she has the nerve to look down on him for being productive and content with himself. I almost feel bad saying this, but I was relieved when she died.
A big part of me thinks she would have because I believe Wildeve always loved her more than Thomasin, but maybe they were really done before Clym showed up…opinions???
ReplyDeleteHeather: I like your take on Venn. A lot of the book seemed a little bit unbelievable to me, though. The whole afternoon when Mrs. Yeobright finally goes up to visit Clym seemed bizarre to me. After Eustacia denies her and Clym wakes up, he asks about his mother. He decides that day that they should make up. I guess the only answer is fate.
If Clym hadn’t returned, it would have drastically changed the plot. How each character reacts would remain constistent, though. I think Eustacia and Wildeve may have gotten together, but she would become bored with him. On page 98 it says, “The man who had begun by being merely her amusement, and would never have been more than her hobby but for his skill in deserting her at the right moments, was now again her desire.” If she had changed her feelings from rejecting him to desiring him based on such a petty principle, there is no doubt she would change her mind again. That relationship would be based on possession, which wouldn’t last. Eustacia also said at one point that she had loved Wildeve until she found someone better. Those ideas are a constant in the way she thinks, and in the ending we read, she didn’t give up those ideas until she died. I have to believe there would be a similar outcome. Other opinions?
-Audrey Corbin
Oops, I didn't mean to copy that first question from your post, Heather!
ReplyDeleteI went back to read a few more posts…
ReplyDeleteTroy, I loved how you said Eustacia was the anti-reddleman. That is exactly what I was thinking as I read. He is like one with the heath, completely selfless, and willing to do work. Eustacia thinks about leaving the heath daily but does absolutely nothing about it except marry Clym (and we know that turned out well.)
Wow, here’s some more credit to Thomas Hardy. After reading more posts, this drawn-out book did make me think a lot. I think I would like Thomasin if I got to meet her. Although she is a little too wrapped up in what the townspeople think (enough to marry someone she doesn’t love), I bet she’d be a sweetheart. On page 159 she says, “I am a practical woman now.” I don’t believe her whole heart is behind that. She follows the conventional way of life to avoid embarrassment, but I like to believe she’s practical enough to know that love is not practical. I thought as I was nearing the end, it was too bad Clym and Thomasin couldn’t get married because they’re related, so it surprised me that Clym mentioned it! As you can imagine, I was happy with the ending. Venn and Thomasin together at last. They have the best shot at making it work because they’re not self-centered.
It’s interesting that when Clym returned, Thomasin was a disgrace. Mrs. Yeobright explained that Clym couldn’t imagine how miserable the last weeks had been. After Thomasin married Wildeve, she got her act together in the eyes of society. But that’s when Clym’s marriage was tearing apart his relationship with his mother. I’m sure that when he arrived, he could never see himself causing his mother as much pain as Thomasin had. After all was said and done, Clym’s relationship with her, or lack of, actually caused her death.
Next to the text on page 375, I wrote “death is limited, easier than questioning or not knowing.” This was the sad thought that must have crossed Eustacia’s mind. She was always searching; all of her desires went unsolved. I’m sure that was draining after the years she went on, not knowing what she was looking for except to get out of Egdon Heath.
Okay, either you guys post wayyyy too much or I don't come and check the blog enough because there are way too many new posts for me to comment on, so I'll pick a few.
ReplyDeleteDylan/Matt: I agree with Dylan that Book 1 could have been condenced, not all of that detail was necessary. Yes,describe the setting, but there is no reason for four pages all about the heath. I think it could have been condenced a little, but not as much as I think that Dylan is getting at. Book 1 is still needed, I just don't think that it needs to go so in depth. We don't need every little tiny detail, we just need enough to understand what it is. So I'm basically in the middle of both of you, I think that it could be shortened (like Dylan) but I also think that Book 1 is necessary (like Matt).
Heather: I like your idea about Diggory representing the good/evil of the heath. I hadn't thought of that, but thinking about it now it actually makes sense, or at least seems possible. I do agree that it was a little unbelievable that he was always showing up places. And my opinions as to whether or not Wildeve and Eustacia would have married if Clym had stayed in Paris over Christmas: I think that they probably would have. Wildeve definately love Eustacia more and would have easily stayed with her if she hadn't told him to go marry Thomasin. They probably would have ran away together and married. They may not have stayed together long, because like Audry said, Eustacia only likes Wildeve for periods of time, then gets bored of him, but even so I think that they would have hastily married and then probably separated then get back together, and so on.
-Jen Rankin
Okay, Matt, Jen, and everyone else who was involved in this conversation: I guess saying that Book One should have been eliminated was a little extreme and harsh. I just feel like the the excessive details that Hardy used inhibitted the plot from starting, and I am one who enjoys a story whose plot starts relatively quickly.
ReplyDeleteGregory-"Maybe she just seems okay in comparison to Mrs. Yeobright." What do you mean by that? How come you don't like Mrs. Yeobright? I thought she was a decent person who just wanted the best for her son and niece. Even when Clym and Thomasin went against what she wanted and married Eustacia and Wildeve, (which they shouldn't have and listened to Mrs. Yeobright because they would've been better off that way) Mrs. Yeobright forgave Thomasin and their relationship went back to normal. She wanted the same with her son too but jumped to conclusions. Anyone could have made that mistake though. So yeah, I don't see a reason why you dislike her. Care to explain?
ReplyDeleteAt first I found Return of the Native painfully boring and I wasn't able to fully appreciate the beauty of Edgon Heath. As I continued reading the book, I found that I was really enjoying it. The book continually surprised me and I was never able to quite predict what would happen next. I was glad Venn and Thomasin ended up together because I found myself rooting for them throughout the book. I loved that Venn was willing to put Thomasin's happiness above his own and that he always had good intentions with everything he did. He was by far my favorite character in the book. I became impatient with the other characters and wished they would just express their true feelings instead of sneaking around. With that being said, I appreciated the ending and I felt each character got what he or she deserved.
ReplyDelete-Rebecca Tourtellotte
Dylan: Okay, I can see where you're coming from when you say that the side stories had crucial details and expanded themes, but I still don't like them! I think its mostly because I would just start to get into the story and then bam! side story, which was frustrating to me.
ReplyDeleteLiz: Eustacia is definitely the type of person who enjoys the chase and not what comes after it- she even states that the only reason why she wanted Wildeve back was because he turned his affections to Thomasin. I'd bet she thought it would be harder to make Clym like her, and she was disappointed when he fell for her so easily (like all of the others?). I'm under the impression that Eustacia enjoys leading men on and breaking their hearts, so she probably just expected more out of Clym, especially with him being a fashionable man from Paris!
Marissa
So I have just been reading a few more random comments.
ReplyDeleteLiz- I completely agree with you when you say that it is sad that Mrs. Yeobright never went to the weddings. On the other hand though, I have to disagree with you when you said you feel bad for the poor woman. I think it is ridiculous that she refused to go to her own son's wedding. Even if she may not approve of his partner fully, she should still love her son, and that love should be enough a reason to atleast attend it. I guess that is just part of the time frame though, when decesions like that with social status and such were a little more strict.
Audrey-I just wanted to say that I loved your comment on Thomasin. You said that she does care too much about what people think but you do think she seems very sweet. I especially loved how you elaborated on her quote about being a practical woman, by saying she was "practical enough to know love is not practical". I had never thought of it that way but it is completley true. That makes the book sad, but then again, in the end it all came together when Venn and Thomasin were together. I just wanted to say I thought that was a really neat way to look at it Audrey.
Sharon, I address my feelings towards Mrs. Yeobright in my post on August 23 at 9:01 AM. Several things about your post:
ReplyDelete1. I don't see how Clym and Thomasin are any worse off after their marriages. Clym learned a valuable lesson (and didn't die) and Thomasin ended up happy with Venn.
2. What makes you think Mrs. Yeobright forgave Thomasin? Or wanted to forgive Clym? I believe that Mrs. Yeobright had another reason for going to Clym's house. She wanted not just to see Clym (but not forgive him) but to also try to convince him to leave Eustacia. As I've said before, Mrs. Yeobright had an unfortunate and completely irrational hatred of Eustacia.
Is that a good explanation?
~ Gregory Naigles~
Gregory, I have to agree with Sharon. When I first read that you didn't like Mrs. Yeobright I was shocked. Like sharon said she was just a mother looking out for the well-being of her children. In addition, I must disagree with your assesment that Mrs.Yeobright was not planning on making ammends with Clym. It says on page 275, "It was about eleven o'clock on this day that Mrs Yeobright started across the heath towards her son's house, to do her best in getting reconciled with him and Eustacia, in conformity with her words to the reddleman. And if you turn back to page 273 to her conversation with the reddleman she says, "I will own to you, reddleman, that I thought of going. I should be much happier of we were reconciled. The marriage is unalterable, my life may be cut short (foreshadowing), and I should wish to die in peace. He is my only son; and since sons are made of such stuff I am not sorry I have no other. As for Thomasin, I never expected much from her; and she has not disappointed me. But I forgave her long ago; and I forgive him now. I'll go." This quotation in my opinion clearly indicates Mrs. Yeobright's good intentions when visiting Clym that day. Also, I think that sharon's point is that Clym and Thomasin were not with who they were supposed to, and Mrs. Yeobright knew that all along.
ReplyDeleteFinally, you only responded to sharon's comment with criticism towards what she said, and never even said why didn't like Mrs. Yeobright, which I would still be interested in knowing.
Sorry even this seems mean but saying you do not like Mrs Yeobright is quite a bold statement if you do not have any evidence to back it up, and I have yet to see any evidence.
One more thing that I would like to touch on is the excerpt on page 391 that states, "The writer may state here that the original conception of the story did not design a marriage between Thomasin and Venn. He was to have reatined his isolated and weird character to the last, and to have disappeared mysteriously from the heath, nobody knowing whither - Thomasin remaining a widow. But certain circumstances of serial publication led to a change of intent." I was surprised that there was not more discussion about this particular dilemna, I know Beverly brought it up at one point, but I did not see any real follow-up comments (correct me if I missed something). I think part of the reason people were not really affected by the possibility of this ending not being Thomas Hardy's true ending, was that they liked the ending the way it was. My guess is that if Goldengrove had a footnote simialr to this one, it would have been a popular topic for discussion. But the reason I have come back to this footnote after all this time is that the discussion about Venn's role in the book got me thinking. I really do believe that Venn was supposed to represent the difference between good and evil on the heath, and to me it doesn't seem right for him to get married. Like the footnot says his character is isolated and weird, always popping up at weird times and never really seeming 100% human. At the time that I read the ending I agreed with the marriage of Thomasin and Venn, but after having a while to reflect on the book I wish Thomas Hardy had stuck to his original ending. In my opinion, Venn is not the type of charcter that is meant to get married, he is more the charcter that disappears at the end because his work is done.
ReplyDeleteGregory- I agree with Heather. You have a habit of making very big statements, but fail to explain yourself thoroughly. I reread your August 23rd post which you mentioned, and it only said that you wished she was more open-minded and less controlling of Clym and Thomasin.
ReplyDeleteGoing back to your August 23rd at 9:01 AM post (sorry for not bringing this up before): It was typically of parents back then to have a say in whether or not the children should marry certain people. For example, there was matchmaking at that time (although never used in the book). Another example: it is clearly stated multiple times throughout the book that the people of Egdon Heath were concerned about getting marital consent from their families. This especially goes for Thomasin; she always had/wanted Clym's or Mrs. Yeobright's consent and was fixated on not disgracing the family's name. At the time, marrying was a symbol of status, and parents always want their children to have it better than they had.
Now that I have completely finished my essay, revisions and all, I want to throw a few questions/thoughts out there…
ReplyDeleteI realize Liz previously asked this but I’m going to restate is because I still don’t understand. Where did Mrs. Yeobright's aggression come from? It seemed as if all of a sudden she was completely against Eustacia and I’m not totally sure why. Was it mostly because Clym’s recent life choices or was it because she truly did not like the relationship? I know there has been discussion about this but I still cannot fully wrap my mind around it.
Also, just like a lot of other people, I’m little skeptical about Diggory Venn. There seemed to be a little bit TOO much coincidence with him and I think if it weren't for his unrealistic timing the story would have really gone nowhere. While I do believe Diggory was important to the story, I think he could have been utilized in a much more believable way.
I’m still thinking… so maybe there is more to come!
-Dakota Gagliardi
Well, this book ended up being better than Goldengrove, but not by much. I think I have a problem reading tragedies about love, because I was barely interested 90% of the time. I think I should touch upon my analysis of my favorite and least favorite characters, since that was what I focused on throughout most of the reading.
ReplyDeleteI was very happy with the fact that Diggory ended up with Thomasin (which is exactly why Hardy made it that way; for brownie points from his readers). They really are perfect for each other. They were exaggerated, yet true to themselves and others the entire book. Diggory hated Wildeve and Eustacia, yet tried to save them both (along with Clym). I was pretty happy with the fact that he became a dairy farmer, too.
Eustacia certainly didn't let me down. She was as troublesome towards the end as she was in the beginning. Personally, I blame her for Mrs. Yeobright's death. To not invite the mother of your husband into your home because you were busy with your lover and because of simple cowardice is a terrible thing to do. It was obvious she was going to try to leave, and it was just as well that it didn't happen; given the tragic nature of this story, she did seem to get the raw end of every event. I don't think bad luck exuses her morally horrid actions, however.
The endings for Clym and Wildeve weren't very surprising either. With Wildeve, it was more of the same "blindly run to serve Eustacia every time she calls", and he paid for it. When Clym's life was torn apart by her death, it seemed natural that he would take the role of itinerant preacher, because A) it was a way for him to help the masses, which is what he really wanted to do; and B) he had a first hand account of moral corruption.
I also noticed all the houses have names. Is this a British thing? I'm pretty sure it happen's in Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings, too.
I certainly am glad to be done with The Return of the Native. Luckily, it's easy to write an essay about because of the distinct character traits. Congratulations, A Moon for the Misbegotten; you're my favorite summer reading book of 2010.
Heather, Dylan: I'll try to explain in this post exactly why I don't like Mrs. Yeobright. My post on August 23 must have been too full of adjectives and not full enough of reasons.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all Heather, you have a different edition of the book, and the page numbers are not the same, so it's no use citing page numbers.
Okay, here goes. This is basically a summary of Mrs. Yeobright's actions throughout the story, and which of them I didn't like and why.
Mrs. Yeobright started out as a neutral character. The first bad sign was her blow-up on Thomasin for not getting married when she was supposed to. This was not Thomasin's fault, but did Mrs. Yeobright care? No way. It was just a simple mistake, and people aren't supposed to blow up about simple mistakes, especially when they don't even concern them! (This mistake concerned only Thomasin and Wildeve.)
Then Mrs. Yeobright opposed Thomasin's marriage to Wildeve. A parent opposing the marriage of their child is okay, if the parent keeps their disagreement to themself and still attends the wedding. Mrs. Yeobright was constantly harping on Thomasin about how evil Wildeve was, when she had never actually met Wildeve (and didn't provide any alternatives to him). And then, Mrs. Yeobright didn't even attend her own niece's wedding. That was what proved to me that she was a bad character. How would you like to have been Thomasin in this situation?
By the way: I don't care if Wildeve was or wasn't a good match for Thomasin or vice versa. Parents need to accept and try to form friendships with the spouses of their relatives, regardless of whether they like them or not.
Then Clym came, and quickly fell in love with Eustacia (whom Mrs. Yeobright had also never met). Mrs. Yeobright was quick to oppose this marriage as well, and harped on Clym even more than she harped on Thomasin. I just wonder how Clym still loved his mother, after she treated him like dirt for all that time. I admired Clym for his resilience in that part of the book. Then Mrs. Yeobright had her yelling match with Eustacia, and that was the final straw for me. What possible right does Mrs. Yeobright have to find Eustacia and explode on her for loving her son? Eustacia had done absolutely nothing wrong to Mrs. Yeobright. Dylan, it's like you walking up to Heather in the hallway and screaming at her for no particular reason. Do you think that's acceptable behavior?
Mrs. Yeobright was always a control freak. Her children were adults! They were living their own lives, and they could make their own decisions! Mrs. Yeobright needed to JUST LET GO!!!!!!!
Okay. Calm down, deep breath. Continue.
Although it may say in the book that Mrs. Yeobright forgave Thomasin, I don't think she really did because her dialogue to Thomasin made it seem like she still did not accept the reality of the situation. Therefore, I had no reason to believe that Mrs. Yeobright actually intended to forgive Clym.
Mrs. Yeobright’s last act was just as horrible as all her other acts, if a bit more coincidental (the role of fate comes in here). Her last words, to Johnny Nunsuch, were that she was a broken-hearted woman who was cast off by her son. She should have realized that these words might get to her son, who would be very distraught (as he was). However, I feel that the reality was more the other way around. By opposing Clym’s marrying Eustacia, and carrying around that hatred for Eustacia, Mrs. Yeobright very effectively cast off Clym. Clym had no reason to visit her, as he would only get from Mrs. Yeobright more whining, more insults on Eustacia, and more repeated offers to leave Eustacia. A mother casting off her son just because of who he married is, to me, very cruel.
So that’s why I don’t like Mrs. Yeobright. Is this good enough for you?
Wow, that was the longest post I have ever written, by far. I have said enough for now.
~ Gregory Naigles ~
P.S. Dylan, I strongly disapprove of any form of matchmaking.
Okay Gregory I am more satisfied with your answer and respect your opinions, but I still do not agree with you.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, even if you don't think Mrs. Yeobright forgave Thomasin and didn't truly intend to forgive Clym, as Heather stated(even if her page numbers don't match yours) it is in the book.
Okay, even though she was not in favor of the marriages, Mrs. Yeobright still allowed them to happen.. it's not like she threatened to kill herself or anything. She didn't approve so she just let it be. She wanted to show that she did not approve so didn't attend the wedding. I'm sure Thomasin already knew that and clearly did not care enough because she got married anyway. And yes she did pester her son and niece about their spouses but for the right reasons I think. Was Thomasin really happy living with a man who loved another woman and hardly paid her any attention? I think not. How did both Thomasin and Clym's marriages turn out? They failed. Oh and you only mentioned that Mrs. Yeobright treated her son like dirt but did not mention the other end of it.. that Clym broke his mother's heart by choosing another woman over her. How do you think she felt? She raised the kid till now and he betrays her. He could have respected his mom a little more.. at least tried to make the relationship between Eustacia and his mother better before marrying her. Mrs. Yeobright might have givin in after awhile and let them marry.. she wanted to forgive Clym after he married anyway so I think it might have worked out better that way.
Mrs. Yeobright said that she was cast off by her son because she really thought she was. And it's not like she knew that she was going to die having those be one of her last words..
Anddd I'm pretty sure it was Clym that decided to leave Egdon and his mother in order to marry Eustacia. Mrs. Yeobright didn't tell him to leave. Clym also did want to visit his mother to ask for forgiveness and restore their relationship.
But a son that leaves his own mother who gave birth to him and raised him for another woman, to me, very cruel.
Gregory, you have provided many reasons why you dislike Mrs Yeobright, and like sharon said I respect those reasons, but I am wondering what you would really do if you were put in Mrs. Yeobright's position. One of your problems with her is her constant interjection into her child's marriages. You say that is not her place. Well, I say who's place is it if not the parents. You say Mrs Yeobright has no right to get angry over the postponment of Thomasin's and Wildeve's wedding, yet she could tell something was weird with Wildeve, and Thomasin could not. Mrs. Yeobright turned out to be right. Wildeve still loved Eustacia. If you can see that your child is making a bad decision it is your job to step in. The same goes for the other times. Although she was controling, she only had her children's best interests in mind.
ReplyDeleteI will give you this though Gregory; after spending so much time analyzing Mrs. Yeobright, it is evident she is very controlling. And on paper it is easy to see her controlling ways as loving care for her children, but in real life I am sure she would be much more difficult to deal with. I have a parent and a grand parent (the apple doesn't fall far from the tree) that can be very controlling and sometimes it can be difficult to live with.
This was my least favorite of all of the summer reading books. First of all, I hated the beginning, it started way too slow and i almost immidiatly lost interest. I would read five pages, then think about what i read and i would realize i haven't absorbed much of the information/description at all. I understand that Hardy wanted to fully describe Egdon Heath so you can feel what life is like there, but come on! In my opinion a novel should have something in the beginning to make the reader ant to keep reading. I also hated the character, Mrs. Yeobright. She's Thomasin's Aunt but she acted like her keeper. I just thought it was strange how she couldn't let her full grown neice just live her own life.
ReplyDeleteYes, yes, I know what you all are thinking. Its the day before school and Im just posting my first blog for this book. Well, if you must know, Its been a crazy, hectic summer, but at least I got to the blogging eventually. Anyways,the first chapter of this book, like many other people stated before me, was so hard to get through. Not to toot my own horn or anything but I consider myself a fast reader, but I found myself struggling to turn the page. This book took me longer to read than any other book Ive read before, even some twice as long as it, for example, every Harry Potter book. I also found that I would read a page and realize I had no idea what just happened in it. So I found myself re-reading entire chapters after I finished them. While it was a pain it really helped me understand the book a lot more. This book finally helped me decide on my essay topic. While I was hesitant to wander off in search of my own topic, I found one that I could really develop on in my essay. I chose to do my essay on how all of the characters in Goldengrove, and The Return of the Native are all connected to a significant person or place within the novel that really makes their character who they are. I dont want to give away my whole essay but all of the characters in The Return of the Native are formed off of the heath, and my "formed" I mean they all have specific connections and similarities to it.
ReplyDeleteI will have to agree with Garrett, this was the least favorite of my summer reading books. Not only was it lengthy, but it made no sense to me at all, in the beginning. When it finally picked up towards the middle, I realized a big theme in the book was the relationship between love and possesions. Many characters couldnt decipher between the two and a lot of the love triangles were formed by the character's competative nature.
All in all, I didnt have a favorite or least favorite character. I believe that all the characters play an important role in the novel and therefore one shouldnt be favored over another.
Even though its the day before school I hope someone responds to this so I can blog more!I hope you all have a great last day of summer (:
-Hanna Christensen
Liking The Return of the Native was something that I was not expecting to do. When I first picked up the book, my thoughts were "Oh crap". Nonetheless, instead of giving up, I pushed myself through the first chapter or so. When the characters started being introduced I found it getting a bit easier to read. And by the end, I actually was enjoying it! I couldn't wait to know what happened next.
ReplyDeleteThe lengthy and almost hard to read beginning, seemed like it was kind of extraneous information at first. I didn't think there really needed to be that long of a description about the heath. Although, once I finished the book, I thought back about the whole thing and I thought about the beginning that was at first almost painful to read. And I realized how important that description was to the story. That without the heath, we wouldn't have this tragic novel.
I had very mixed feelings about Miss. Eustacia Vye (Yeobright). At some times I felt she was a spoiled young woman who didn't appreciate what she had. While at other times, I felt she was someone who tried so hard to be strong when really they just felt utterly hopeless. That's not to say she wasn't a strong willed individual! Eustacia knew what she wanted and (with the exception of Wildeve and leaving Egdon Heath) she appeared to get it. One thing that annoyed me about Eustacia was her willingness to use Clym, because I think she knew she wasn't as in love with him as she let on. As it was, she only became interested in him after she heard Sam and Humphrey discussing how herself and Clym would make a very attractive couple. I think Eustacia fell in love with her own projection of Clym, handsome, rich, from Paris, and essentially her ticket out of Egdon Heath.
Clym irritated me. He seemed almost childlike in some ways. In the way that, he didn't know what he wanted to do he changed what job he wanted to occupy from a schoolmaster to poor children to a schoolmaster at a boarding school for better off children and then when his eyes were over strained he became a furze cutter! While I don't think he meant ill by it, he seemed very focused on himself and no one else. Such as not caring about his mother's opinion on Eustacia. Or Eustacia's desire/want/need to get out of Egdon Heath. He was only focused on what he wanted and what he would enjoy the most.
Wow, after reading all of the previous posts about Mrs. Yeobright, I feel like I need to add my own opinion in too!
ReplyDeleteI honestly believe that Mrs. Yeobright had her son and niece's best interests at heart. She knew that neither of her relations' spouse choices were good, so she did her best to steer them away from making a poor choice. She (of course) was unsuccessful, which is the whole point of the book, dealing with the unhappy marriages. She is definitely a controlling woman, but what other choice does she have? I'm sure, like Heather said, dealing with her in real life wouldn't be easy, but her reasons behind her actions are to protect Thomasin and Clym from being hurt.
Gregory, I feel like you are trying to make Mrs. Yeobright out to be this horrible woman who tries to ruin others' happiness, but she is really doing the opposite! Of course she was going to disapprove of Clym's marriage to Eustacia, she doesn't exactly win the "best wife and overall person" award! Everything Eustacia does is for her own personal gain, and although the Vye and Yeobright families aren't close to one another, you can still see she isn't a good person through her other actions. And, at that time, marriages were a lot different than they are today; they were all about gaining wealth and status- and neither Wildeve nor Eustacia have either.
Marissa
Sharon:
ReplyDelete1. I believe that parents should always attend their children’s marriages, regardless of whether the parents approve of the marriage or like the spouse.
2. Wildeve still paid Thomasin some attention; after all, they had a baby together!
3. Clym and Thomasin are no worse off after their marriages. Both learned important lessons, neither died, and both ended up happy (Clym as a preacher, Thomasin with Venn).
4. A child marrying someone who their parents disapprove of is not betrayal. Mrs. Yeobright should not have taken Clym’s actions as an affront to her.
5. It is the parents’ responsibility to try to build a relationship with their son- or daughter-in law. This is not the responsibility of either the child or the child’s spouse.
6. Clym never intended to leave Egdon Heath.
7. About your last line, really?!? Say you had a great guy, who loved you, and you loved him, and both of you wanted to be married, but your parents disapproved. Would you actually not marry him?
Heather:
1. Whose place is it to interject into a marriage? Only the husband and wife. No one else.
2. Even if something was weird with Wildeve, Mrs. Yeobright should have attended the wedding. If parents disapprove of a marriage, they should either keep it to themselves or tell their child ONCE, and they should be prepared for a dismissal of their opinions. Thomasin is old enough to make her own decisions, and as we can see, she ended up happy with Venn, which would probably not have happened if she hadn’t married Wildeve.
3. I’m glad you see that Mrs. Yeobright is very controlling. I have been with many controlling people for extended periods of time, and I still can’t even imagine what Clym had to go through in the book. I felt so bad for him when he was constantly being berated by his mother.
4. If I was in Mrs. Yeobright’s position, I would follow the rules I laid out above, and would treat Clym and Thomasin like adults, and use a hands-off approach. That’s the best way.
~ Gregory Naigles ~
Marissa thank you very much for posting that right after mine! I completely forgot to mention Mrs. Yeobright. And I do agree with what you said, I don't think that she was out to ruin Clym's life, she just wanted to see him with someone who wasn't as selfish.
ReplyDeleteThe reaction Mrs. Yeobright had when she knew of Clyms intentions with Eustacia, I believe, were perfectly understandable. She was loosing her son after just seeing him again. And to top it all off she was loosing him to Eustacia! She had also just lost her niece, to a man who was most certainly not the best husband for her. If I were in her position I would've felt awful. She lost her family, her son and niece, to two less than fantastic marriages.
Another character I'd like to mention is Damon Wildeve. To think that guys were like that centuries ago as well as today kind of boggles the mind I suppose you could say! He was probably my least favorite character. The way he treated Eustacia almost made it seem like she was his fallback plan and only went to her when he was unhappy with Thomasin or whatever else. And he was a terrible husband to Thomasin, going out every night to spy on Eustacia and Clym's house. His behavior in general was almost embarassing to read about, and I couldn't have been happier when Diggory Venn placed that trap and then shot at him. Venn was one of my favorite characters, he was one of the few who was loyal, understanding and managed to keep calm under tense situations. I loved how devoted he was to Thomasin's happiness, and the fact that they married at the end seemed to make up for all of the unhappiness in the book.